pistol/shotgun loop belts authentic?

[texcl]

I have been looking for images of  original cartridge belt with combination  pistol and shotgun loops.  Seems like  a goose idea but can't find and pics of originals.

[St. George]

And you won't.

They're a SASS 'shoot-fast' thing.

During the era, there would've been no need, since folks didn't wander the West loaded for bear and anticipating a gunfight - especially one with multiples of weaponry - behind every creosote bush or town facade.

There are threads in the 'Historical Society' Forum and the 'NCOWS' forum - both largely the same - so take a look in their 'back pages'.

Scouts Out!

[texcl]

thanks, i'll take a look.

[Trailrider]

Never say never! Sheriff Comodore Perry Owens is shown in a studio photo with an odd buscadero rig like something out of a B-Western movie.  So-called "thimble" or prairie belts (aka Fairweather Christian belts) were made up by Army cavalry saddlers before canvas cartridge belts were issued. While I can't put my hands on a photo right now, I'd bet there might have been Wells Fargo express messengers that could have had special belts made up to accomodate whatever combination of arms they might have been packing.

[Cliff Fendley]

That photo of Perry Owens with the wide cartridge belt is nothing more than a mexican loop holster that is taken apart and the skirt is tucked up under the belt. He is covering the skirt and holding it with his hand. You can even see the shading on the holster body where the loops have protected it from the sun.

That is nothing more than a studio photo, my guess was to show off the wide cartridge belt. So many people seem to be misled of that being a representation of a buscadaro rig but it is not.

I blew up that picture and it was part of my discussion in my presentation on period correct gun leather at last years NCOWS convention.

Study that photo and look at the light shading where the loops have protected the holster body and how he is covering the skirt and holding the holster with his hand. That holster was NOT worn the way the photo shows.

[ChuckBurrows]

With all due respect to St George, whom I consider a friend and good researcher, there is at least one period original gunbelt from the 1890's/turn of the century with both type loops you mention incorporated on it so it's not just a SASS thing (belt slides are a bit different story) .  It was worn by Utah (and IIRC later Arizona) bounty hunter J. B. Call - here's a poor scan of the complete rig - it is from an article in I believe Guns Magazine from the late 1970's or 1980's (probably the latter) - I've got the original article somewhere, but after a move last year it's most likely still packed away.



Based on memory the belt has two 12 ga loops (which can be seen in the photo), four rifle loops, and the rest pistol ctg (44 or 45 cal IIRC) loops. The holster is also a bit of an oddity being one for a 5 1/2" barreled SAA with three loops - the upper loop shortened the belt loop width helping to keep it from riding up during the draw or while riding.

Every one of these multi-caliber type belts I've seen are most often have pistol/rifle cartridge loops and are from he late 1890's or early 1900's and most were worn by lawmen of various types in the SW USA - the Arizona Rangers who existed from 1903-1909 seemed particularly fond of such belts which were often 30-40 Krag and 45 Colt. A few are pictured in Packing Iron.

I did a short search online for J. B. Call and mostly came up with bloody Justin Bieber crapola...might ry contacting Guns Magazine

[ChuckBurrows]

I found this info I had posted earlier on JB Call with info from the article
JB Call rig-
Point 1: from the available info JB Call left Utah for Arizona and New Mexico some time just after the turn of the century and based on that fact I made the decision that the rig as made prior to his move since logic would say that he bought the rig locally while still in Utah.
Point 2: JB Call carried at least four known, rifles, two apparently used while still in Utah and the two aquired after he moved south: his first was a Sharps M1874, his second a M1886 Winchester 45-90 in which he fired the more commonly available 45-70 round, a M95 Winchester in 30-40 Govt and a M94 Winchester in 30-30 were later carried. Since the belt (pictured above) was made for his 45-70  it is a good assumption based on the available facts that the rig was made prior to 1900.
Point 3: I discussed this rig with well known and respected collector Mr. Bill Macklin whose book "Cowboy and Gunfighter Collectibles" is a good if not perfect resource for dating old cowboy gear and whose collection of 50 years is now the center point for the Cowboy Collection at the Museum of Northwest Colorado in Craig, CO. Mr Macklin had actually seen and handled the JB Call rig and it was his considered opinion that it was built sometime around 1895-1897 when JB Call was working as a government trapper and bounty hunter in Utah. Again not solid proof and although I do not have the dates for the Cox Leather firm (who made the above pictured rig) I assumed that Mr. Macklin would have used that as a basis for his opinion.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Good information Chuck, thanks for sharing

   tEN wOLVES 

[texcl]

I''ve seen a bunch of rifle/pistol belts just no pistol /shotgun rigs. It's funny that there would be such a stark difference, they must not have valued the shotgun as highly as one would think. Could have just been a style thing too.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I''ve seen a bunch of rifle/pistol belts just no pistol /shotgun rigs. It's funny that there would be such a stark difference, they must not have valued the shotgun as highly as one would think. Could have just been a style thing too.

There are exceptions, like shotgun messangers, but normal arms for fighting men were firstly the rifle, with a revolver as backup.  The shotgun was often thought of as useful for foraging.  Carrying too many firearms was a burden and I'm sure not many carried more than was necessary.  In town the shotgun also had its uses but for riding out the rifle was the more useful.

OK OK; now have it out with me.

[Ranch 13]

There are exceptions, like shotgun messangers, but normal arms for fighting men were firstly the rifle, with a revolver as backup.  The shotgun was often thought of as useful for foraging.  Carrying too many firearms was a burden and I'm sure not many carried more than was necessary.  In town the shotgun also had its uses but for riding out the rifle was the more useful.

OK OK; now have it out with me.

In actual fact it had more to do with how much money someone had. There were in fact more shotguns in use than centerfire rifles and handguns. Those people lived in a much different time than most of us can even get our heads around. Money was scarce, and while the myth says everybody had a rifle and a colt and a greener, real world says a shotgun, and maybe a rifle, and possibly an old handgun of some sorts. IF they had a gun at all.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Ranch;  You are probably quite right for the western population as a whole, but I did say "fighting men". Like soldiers, lawmen and hardcase gunmen.  The limitation wouldn't always be money for them as firearms might even be supplied.  The thought of carrying 20-30 or more pounds of guns & ammo wearies me. A carbine and revolver & ammo might keep the load down to about 15 pounds.

[Ranch 13]

 Well soldiers had a government specified ammo ration, lawmen were as varied in their armament as anybody else, most had to provide their own, and hardcase gunmen usually earned their reputations in bar fights etc and had a short lived career, but even then the "death" photos show alot of buckshot wounds around the single rifle or handgun the desperado had.

[Massive]

In addition to being a go fast thing, it is a go fast thing where the paradigm is that the shotgun starts unloaded.

One thing I am curious about is that there were professional shooters back then, the Anniie Oakley types.  Maybe even certain law enforcement types also.  It does not seem beyond the realm of possibility that these people had some custom gug I ns or gear.

On JB's rig, it would only be SASS type if he actually had those shells for combat, as opposed to having them for putting meat in the pot.