Help for the neophyte

[Bugscuffle]

I used to shoot some black powder )muzzle loaders) but I have not shot black powder cartridge before and I need a little guidance and advice. Here are my questions:
1. In a four stage match I'll be shooting 40 rounds through my model 92 in between cleanings. I use the model 92 as my reference point because I believe that this would be the first of my guns that would give me a problem from B.P. powder residue build up and 40 rounds is pretty close to the point where the gun will need cleaning before continuing. How important, if at all, is it to use only clean burning powder? Is this a serious factor?
2. What are the cleaner burning powders and what are the powders to avoid in this regard? Are the really inexpensive black powders, like Reinactor, only good for making smoke and noise?
3. This may be just a preference, but does taper crimp Vs roll crimp make a big difference in B.P. cartridge? Presently I use a short taper crimp for my smokeless loads, but I'm thinking that maybe a different crimp would allow the pressure to build up a little higher before the bullet is released from the cartridge.

[Stu Kettle]

When I shot my first black powder match I had similar concerns about my '92 - turned out to be unfounded.  The only guns that gave me trouble were the revolvers which were getting sticky after 4 or 5 stages.  A regular shooter of black powder squirted some Ballistol on them from a spray can & they worked fine the rest of the day.  Only trouble I had after that was that it rained a little most of the afternoon and that Ballistol made it real tricky to hang on to those pistols with wet hands.

[hellgate]

If you are shooting a bullet that carries a large amount of lube you will have no problems. An alternative that may or may not appeal to you is to use a BP substitute like APP or 777 and just use standard smokeless lubed bullets. I shoot .357mag in my '92s and could not get a load that was BOTH accurate AND could shoot all day using BP (real gunpowder). I had a load that shot all day but wasn't accurate and another that was accurate that required a "pull through" wet swab between stages. I got tired of getting permanent black splatter on my shirt cuffs so I went to 777 and never looked back. The load shoots 3/4"@50 yards benched which is way more accurate than needed. Guys with bottle neck calibers like 38/40 & 44/40 have very good luck keeping fouling out of the action due to the better seal. Crimping works well to build up enough pressure to get a good seal before the bullet gets very far. Regardless of which crimp you use (I don't know which is best, someone else will have BTDT and can answer you) but I strongly recommend you get a factory crimp die to run your loaded cartridges through before going to any match. The bottleneck cartridges are famous for swelling the shoulders upon crimping and that can cause jams. The die irons them out for reliable feeding. My rifles are Rossis and finicky for cartridge OAL. Before you work up a load with a particular bullet. Make up some dummies and work to find the best OAL that feeds reliably THEN work on the powder charge. Feeding trumps power and accuracy.

[August]

In order to answer your concerns, I'd have to know where you live (climate has a tremendous effect on running black powder during a match) and what caliber you're shooting (bore diameter affects fouling build-up).

Then, I'd need to know what bullets you intend to use and what lube formula you're planning to use.

Those variables are much more important than the brand of powder.

I have found it impossible to reliably run a tubular magazine rifle (regardless of powder) without a firm roll crimp on the cartridges.

To your specific question, I've found Shutzen to run cleaner/longer than other brands of black powder.

[Bugscuffle]

What I've got on hand right now are about 500 each of 200 grain and 250 grain RNFP from Missouri Bullets. They have one wax lube groove and a cannelure, so roll crimp would be no problem. I never thought about the lube grooves though. Now I'm wondering if these bullets will even work with B.P.

[Stu Kettle]

Load 'em with 777 - they lube they came with will be fine.  If you want real black powder in 'em you'll need a different lube & lots of it.

[cpt dan blodgett]

If you use real black and have excessive blow back and the heavy bullet heavy crimp does not work, annealing cases may help.  Helps to have a spray bottle of moose milk handy if fouling or crud becomes a problem.   swabbing the bore every few stages may help as well.

[pony express]

Since you already have bullets with smokeless lube, I'd suggest using 777. Use just enough to fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, no air space, but no compression either. That's how I used to load my .45s for my 1866  carbine. I don't remember the exact ammount of powder that was(haven't loaded for that in a couple of years). Hodgon probably has some exact load recommendations on the net. The lube on the bullets you have won't get along well with real BP.

I used to shoot BP subs in my Rossi '92, I never really had problems with fouling causing jams in it, but they're way more of a pain to dissasemble for a complete cleaning than a '66. But the '66 is more likely to jam from fouling in the action(yeah, I know, I should have gotten a 44-40, but I got the one that was available, when I had the cash)

[Sky Soldier]

If you want to shoot black powder this guy makes bullets with lots of lube in them.
http://www.biglube.com/

[Lefty Dude]

When I shoot my 92/44 with BP or Subs, I wipe the bore every other stage. I use a spent cartridge in the chamber as a plug, this keeps the crud out of the action. Then with a patch Wetted with 50% mixture of simple green and water wipe the bore.

My usual BP match Rifle is a Uberti 44WCF carbine and I have no fouling problems.

[fourfingersofdeath]

I had to shoot a BP Match with traditional lubed commercial bullets once, using my Uberti 1873 and my pietta colt clones, all in 44/40. I spoke to the guy that sold me the bullets and he said to tumble them in Lee Liquid alox. He went on to say that the revolvers would be ok and that there would be a bit of leading in the last few inches of the 24" barrel of the 1873.

I used Moose Milk squirted down the bore of the rifle and a quick pass with a bore snake between stages (didn't take more than a minute or so) and when we had a break for lunch, after shooting three or four stages, I dropped the cylinders on the revolvers, squirted Moose Milk down the barrels and used the bore snake, and also did this to every chamber. As my friend predicted, the guns ran like clockwork all day and I had to use a bit of elbow grease to get rid of the leading in the last few inches of the barrel of the 1873.

I'm glad I bought two 44 handgun and two 44 rifle Bore Snakes, the rifle one was absolutely putrid by the end of the day. It was good to start the second day with clean Bore Snakes, although if you had of washed then, being a bit damp wouldn't have been a problem.

Would I recommend doing it this way all the time? Nope.

Would I do it again if traditional commercial cast bullets were all that I had or could afford? Yes!

Another alternative would be a lube cookie under the bullet with a card wad to keep it off the powder. When I load these I try and get rid of the ammo asap and if left over store it nose down in a tray.

Get a Big Lube mould or bullets and you are home and hosed! Takes the drama out of BP.

I only use straight BP, so I don't know if the above drill would work with substitues.

Watch my lips, B-I-G L-U-B-E! haha!

[Cliff Fendley]

Yep, big lubes and you don't need to worry.

[Cuts Crooked]

Bugscuffle,

Here's the bestest help I c'n give ya: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,82.0.html

Ya read all that 'n yer gonna have the finest training a body c'n git wif BP!

[Slowhand Bob]

The easy way out is to go with APP instead of real black powder.  The smoke will be there in gracious quantities and less than one in twenty will even know.  The APP gives less of the type fouling that would bind your guns and is less heavy on the firearms than the 777, which was actually made for hunting loads in the MLs.  With APP you can use the more readily available, and mch cheaper,  smokeless lubed bullets.  I have even gotten an extra penny or two off on occasion by specifying that bullets didnt need lube at all.  Just for info, if I were casting my own OR if money and bullet selection did not matter, I would be using real bp.

[Noz]

Big Lubes and a full case of black and never look back.

A tidbit: Big Lube bullets IIRC carry 10 times as much lube as a conventional design.


I squirt moose milk down my rifle barrel, pull a bore snake thru it and spray with Ballistol. Done

[Dick Dastardly]

Big Lube bullets were first designed independently and usually without knowledge of parallel development by another shooter.  Cowboy Action shooting is far more intense than ever thought probable back in the day.  For this reason a number of good Cowboys sought and found the answer their fouling problems.  They generously shared those solutions.  I found them when I started shooting Cowboy Action and also found that they all had a common feature that allowed continuous shooting of black powder without fouling problems.

That answer was, and is, the huge lube grove.  Big Lube bullets all haul so much lube that it splashes the fouling and keeps it so soft that the following shot blows out the fouling left by the previous shot.  Your second shot and your last shot both encounter the same amount of fouling.  I've frequently shot full annual matches, including side matches, with no need to clean to maintain accuracy or function.

Dick Dastardly, that's me, doesn't take credit for developing the Big Lube concept.  He simply gathered them together and produced bullet molds for sale on an inventory basis.  That means money was paid and molds delivered in large quantities to be sold directly to customers.  Gone was the long waiting time of "group" buy orders.  Now there is a full stable of Big Lube bullet molds available for all Cowboy Action black powder shooters.  Yup, that's where my 401k went.  It's a pleasure to meet so many fine black powder shooters.

Finally, the entire selection of Big Lube®LLC bullet molds are in stock and ready for immediate delivery.  Now stainless steel is replacing many parts that make up Big Lube®LLC molds.  The new main handle sets are now stainless steel also.

Enjoy the smoke!

DD-MDA

[john boy]

3. This may be just a preference, but does taper crimp Vs roll crimp make a big difference in B.P. cartridge? Presently I use a short taper crimp for my smokeless loads, but I'm thinking that maybe a different crimp would allow the pressure to build up a little higher before the bullet is released from the cartridge.

Use a taper crimp and with a straight case, ie 45 Colt - crimp it hard.  My definition of hard is that it takes 8 - 10 whacks with a kinetic bullet puller to dislodge the bullet.  A hard crimp with any BP load and any bullet not using a wimp powder charge will substantially reduce blow back.
I used to shoot PRS bullets and now reload with only 454190, 250gr Bhn 13.5 to 15.4 alloy.  Using a hard taper crimp reduces blow back.  As for having to clean the revolver and rifle after, say 40 rounds, why is it I can do a 2 day match with the 454190's lubed with a 40:40:20 mix of mutton tallow:paraffin wax:bees wax and only squirt the revolver bolts (nothing done to the '92) the night after the 1st day with Eezox and have no binding?
Might add, after nearly 8-10,000 BP rounds through the Rossi '92 with the 454190's - it has been field stripped maybe twice for cleaning.  When I used PRS bullets, shot close to 4,000 BP rounds and the Rossi was field stripped once

[Fairshake]

I have seen people who may not have a lot of time shooting BP that are doing things that are not needed if you approach the sport in the correct manner.
You need to first make sure that your bullets fit your bore. Slug your barrel with a soft egg shaped fishing sinker with plenty of oil and use a good micrometer to check the readings. If your reading is .452 then use a 20-1 alloy bullet at .454 for best results.
I have found that Missouri Bullets and most other commerical bullets are on the hard side for shooting real Black Powder.
The bullets you have will not work with the real Black as they are made for and lubed with a smokeless lube which is a huge NO_NO with BP.
As far as the wanna be powders and the rea l thing, there is quite a bit of difference in the two even though I have heard people say different. Real BP is a powder that gives off a loud boom, sparks, flames and smoke when fired. The subs are a smokeless type of powder that have a chemical added to produce only smoke. You don't receive any sparks or flames or the sweet sound of real BP.
I shoot my two 44WCF USFA revolvers, Uberti 1873, and TNN 12 gauge on Saturday with my BP at my local SASS matches which there are 3 a month. I usually don't clean my guns until Tuesday or Wednesday with no problems of any rust or hard to clean residue. Try that with a sub and see what happens.
I shot my 92 in 45 Colt when I first started SASS because I could not afford the 66 or 73 rifles. I never had one bit of a problem and did not have to tear them down but twice a year for a complete cleaning. I sprayed the rifle down with Moosemilk both outside and inside and then ran two soaked patches followed by a boresnake and then a patch with Eezox inside and out on all metal parts. Used for three years and it still looked new when it was sold.
For your revolvers if you choose to shoot them, then a coating of Mobil 1 on the Cylinder base pin and bushing will keep it turning for an entire match without any cleaning needed.
I use a lube by the name of NASA and also my own BP lube that took me about a year of trail and error to make. Every person will have what they say is the best. You have to sort out what is true and what is not by trial and error.
Best of Luck and welcome to the best way to shoot. 100% REAL BP Later David

[Four Eyes Henry]

The brass for the rifle is important too, with starline I get blowback and with CBC hardly any.
I had a sizer die reamed out and now my cartridges are straight walled instead of hour glass shaped.

The rifle is a Rossi '92 in 45 Colt and I'm shooting the J/P 200 grains Big Lube with a 18 grains Black Powder load (filler is cous cous).

[hellgate]

Foureyes,
You're probably getting blowback because there isn't enough powder to swell the thicker brass to seal your chamber. 18grs is barely enough to toast the cous cous. Next we're gonna hear that you switched to quinoa 'cause it's got more protein! Just pulling yer laig!