Richards Mason Conversion

Okefinokee Outlaw · January 25, 2013, 01:48:56 PM

I posted this in the Gunsmitthing section, but I thought I'd post here also. Might anyone know of a good gunsmith who could do a genuine conversion/rebuild on a second generation Colt 1860 Army?

Tornado · January 25, 2013, 03:53:50 PM

I'd try to PM Hoof Hearted or Raven.

Bonnie_blue1861 · January 25, 2013, 11:26:29 PM

Quote from: Tornado on January 25, 2013, 03:53:50 PM
I'd try to PM Hoof Hearted or Raven.

Yep...two that come right to mind.

Mike · January 26, 2013, 01:57:22 AM

The above are your best bet.

From what I have seen here the quality is the best.

rifle · January 26, 2013, 07:49:44 AM

There's R L Millington LLC that's been doing the conversions for a long time. Back before the conversion kits came out and all there was were gunsmith converted conversions done the way Colt did it with the arbor holdin the conversion plate on the frame.
I figure the R&D's and the Kirst kits are stronger than the originals. The original conversion has some of the frame milled away at the arbor shoulder position and replaced in that space with a certain thickness of conversion plate. That reduces the number of threads left in the frame fer the arbor to hold onto.
The R&D and the Kirst conversion leaves all the original threads in the frames arbor hole so it's stronger than an original conversion and......can go back to percussion if need be.
Personally I'd opt tol eave the 2nd Gen alone for posterity and value and convert a good ole Italian or Belgian Colt 1860 Army. Uberti being the best choice since all the crappy stampings readin BlackPowder only made in Italy aren't in plain sight.
Also an original conversion needs a heel bullet to fit the barrel properly and thus a special custom bullet mould and crimp die made.
A commercial made conversion as from Uberti can chamber modern 44's with the barrel and chambers compatable with the modern version of a 44Colt or 44 Special.

Major 2 · January 26, 2013, 08:38:05 AM

Quote from: rifle on January 26, 2013, 07:49:44 AM
There's R L Millington LLC that's been doing the conversions for a long time. Back before the conversion kits came out and all there was were gunsmith converted conversions done the way Colt did it with the arbor holdin the conversion plate on the frame.
I figure the R&D's and the Kirst kits are stronger than the originals. The original conversion has some of the frame milled away at the arbor shoulder position and replaced in that space with a certain thickness of conversion plate. That reduces the number of threads left in the frame fer the arbor to hold onto.
The R&D and the Kirst conversion leaves all the original threads in the frames arbor hole so it's stronger than an original conversion and......can go back to percussion if need be.
Personally I'd opt tol eave the 2nd Gen alone for posterity and value and convert a good ole Italian or Belgian Colt 1860 Army. Uberti being the best choice since all the crappy stampings readin BlackPowder only made in Italy aren't in plain sight.
Also an original conversion needs a heel bullet to fit the barrel properly and thus a special custom bullet mould and crimp die made.
A commercial made conversion as from Uberti can chamber modern 44's with the barrel and chambers compatable with the modern version of a 44Colt or 44 Special.

You Sir are very wise

Bonnie_blue1861 · January 26, 2013, 12:10:48 PM

I agree with RIFLE...if your talking about a real second generation Colt

As he said...."2nd Gen alone for posterity and value and convert a good ole Italian or Belgian Colt 1860 Army. Uberti being the best choice since all the crappy stampings readin BlackPowder only made in Italy aren't in plain sight."

Almost better off starting off with an Italian clone, maybe even do a nice defarb on it right away...maybe even a rust brown finish..this gives me some ideas myself.

Coffinmaker · January 26, 2013, 11:29:43 PM

Just to make sure what kind of apples and oranges we're talking about, are you looking for a "Richards/Mason" with serpentine barrel ....... or a "Richards" conversion with the rear sight on the conversion ring. Makes a big difference.

Coffinmaker

Okefinokee Outlaw · January 27, 2013, 05:49:26 PM

Richards/Mason

Okefinokee Outlaw · January 27, 2013, 05:52:42 PM

I'm actually considering the heel bullet route. I'm a glutton for punishment, but love historical accuracy.

Halfway Creek Charlie · January 27, 2013, 07:44:40 PM

I load the 44 Colt heeled bullet and got my crimper (modified Lee) and a mold from Bernie Rowles at Old West Molds.com.

If I can load a heeled bullet correctly, then you can too.
You can buy heeled bullets fairly reasonable, so you really don't need to cast them. My crimper and the special inserts allow me to load 44 Colt brass, 44 Mag and 44 Special brass, depending on which insert I use to crimp. Yes I Load the heeled bullet in all of them because the Brass is almost the same dimensions, except length.

Okefinokee Outlaw · January 28, 2013, 01:36:46 PM

Halfway, Thanks very much for the info. OO

Coffinmaker · January 28, 2013, 09:18:07 PM

Since it's a Richards/Mason Conversion your interested in, I'd probably keep the 2d Gen Colt 1860 "as is" and opt for Uberti purpose built reproduction. The Uberti would be about 1/5th the cost and you won't have to wait upwards of two years for it.

Coffinmaker

Mean Bob Mean · January 29, 2013, 01:05:39 AM

I considered going this route as well. However, my reloading skills are suspect and the expense is considerable relative to a purpose-built conversion from the Piedmontese. Consequently, I purchased an 1860 Army RM in .44 Colt. Were I to go the route you are considering, I believe I would go the inside-lubed .41 Long Colt option offerd by Hoof Hearted. I mean, if one wants unique on the range, why not the ne plus ultra of same?

Cheers and best of luck!

Graveyard Jack · January 29, 2013, 11:41:22 AM

Build a Colt if you want to. New Uberti percussion guns are $300 and Colt's are about twice to three times that. They're better guns and have real color case hardened frames. Collectability on them has been a joke so putting one away won't really net you anything, unless you just like to look at it. If you're going to build a Uberti, why not just buy a Uberti cartridge conversion in the first place??? My advice would be to build a Colt if you're 'that' committed or just buy a Uberti. You could be shooting the Uberti next week.

Far as I know, Bob Millington has retired. If he has started working again and accepting new orders, his conversions start at $1200-$1300 with a two year wait. At least that's what I was quoted 5yrs ago.

Raven · January 29, 2013, 09:00:17 PM

I'm currently building 10 1st model Richards
4 2nd gen Colts
4 Uberti's
and 2 ASMs

I like the colts for the markings.......but, in my opinion the Uberties are better built!

The Colts have real color case, and better fit and finish but the machining tolorences leave much to be desired. Current Uberties are better. In this batch all 4 Colts had recoil shields that were not perpendicular to the arbor pin. In order to machine the recoil shield the arbor must be removed so the only surface you have to measure from is the face of the recoil shield.....What a pain!!!

My current price starts at $1500 with a 2 year wait and I'm considering raising the price to $2000
Raven

Graveyard Jack · January 29, 2013, 09:47:57 PM

So basically you're better off to start with a late production Uberti and spend the money you saved over a Colt on finish work like bone charcoal color case hardening and charcoal bluing? I don't have a problem with that. Personally, if I'm spending that much on a custom gun, I want the best result, not the prettiest name.

Raven · January 29, 2013, 10:40:27 PM

Well, there is no difference in price for the work. Bone colorcase, charcoal blueing etc are part of the price. The money saved by buying an Uberti can be used for Ivories or engraving.

Raven

Graveyard Jack · January 29, 2013, 10:54:19 PM

Even better!

rifle · January 30, 2013, 11:02:05 AM

Raven,
If you are turnin out authentic Colt conversions is there any type special made tools that the cost of can be greatly off-set by the time saved and the ease of putting out a quality job? Maybe some sort of tooling made to set up to machine the recoil shields that are off perpendicular with the arbor? You know like a tool fer set up that uses the arbor fer the set up and once set up get the arbor out and out of the way? Maybe put the conversion plate on the milled frame and if off perpendicular then set up to machine the outside face of the plate into perpendicular?
Out of curiosity....I've noted that the rear surface of the frame seems to be a "benchmark surface" the other things are machined too. Think that is so and if it is that surface screwed to a parallel plate held in the machine vice would set it up quick that way to mill the frame away perpendicular with the center-line of the arbor? Or....that's too easy so as "fate would dictate" it has to be done a much harder way???
It would be difficult to machine the frame away to get the room fer the conversion plate with gate. If you made a jig type devise to set up quick and efficient would the time to make the jig/and/or cutters(tool and die maker made) to do the job be worth it?
Colt did the conversions on used guns and new out of the factory guns and I'd imagine they had the tooling made up to do the work quick and east.....relatively speaking......right?
Usin investment cast parts like fer the conversion plate and gate or CNC made and CNC made cylnders would speed up the work and maybe make the conversions cost the customer less and .......in the long run you'd make more moola.
By the way.....since I haven't checked out "new Uberti cap&ballers........what is the average type tolerance of the arbors in the barrels hole? I heard the holes in the barrels fer the arbors were tightened up good bit enough that some people didn't like it. People that want the barrels to drop right off the guns like the older ones do. I just wondered if Uberti may have tightened that up in lieu of bottoming the arbors......since a tight barrel on the arbor is more mechanically sound then a bottomed arbor. A barrel snug enough on the arbor doesn't move at all and stays tight and sound and keeps the cylinder gap consistant and all that. More tight,more sound, more consistant than a bottomed arbor. The best is a tight arbor hole and a bottomed arbor but a gun can get by just right with just a tight arbor.
If I made conversions or even righted cap&ballers and had a lathe I'd make tight arbors in reamed barrel holes with the arbor end and the barrel hole with a slight taper.......like some of the better made Belgian Centennials by Centaure are. When that's right those barrels are on there really right and mechanically sound.....the best I've seen in any cap&ballers I've ever looked at. When they are on they are perfectly tight with no loose and.....the barrels tap off easy because of the tapered hole and arbor end. A thing of beauty to behold.....unless you are setting the barrel back so many .001's to set the cylinder gap that left the factory too large. I learned to judiciously use diamond lap compound. ha ha ha
A thought.......leaving a 2nd Gen Colt "as is" may not be saving for posterity a gun super high in value right now.......but......2-3-4 generations from now they will be very valuable I'd guess.