Winchester May Reintroduce The 1873

[Ranch 13]

If the 20 inch twist doesn't work, then what would be your explanation as to why Remington used it in the 1880's and Colt even took it a bit further and went with a 16 twist?

[PJ Hardtack]

Handguns generally have a faster ROT due to the shorter dwell time of the bullet in the barrel.

[Blair]

PJ,

Thank you for reminding me of the proper term "dwell time"(all other factors being equal) for a bullet time spent in short/er barreled firearms.
My best,
Blair

[Cliff Fendley]

Well according to the ballistics and stability calculations that even the 1-26 rate of twist reported to be on the Miroku 73 is also too fast for the 44wcf bullets.

As FCK said when calculating with the Lyman 427198 specs the 1-36 that the original Winchesters or older Uberti is the perfect ROT.

Now it stands to reason why my old Navy Arms Uberti shoots so well at long range with its 1-36 ROT. I had hoped to set up my new Cimarron for cowboy long range but its barrel may be more suitable as a pry bar than for a long range rifle.

My 66 has always shot very well but according to the math it could shoot better with the correct ROT.

[Ranch 13]

Cliff you might want to do some actual shooting and see if that new rifle will perform or not. It wouldn't be the first time that the charts and internet experts were found to be wrong.

[Cliff Fendley]

I still plan to try it when my arm and shoulder is able.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Moderator, another warning "salvo" (or worse) please across the bow of the man who seems to enjoy getting threads closed. 

[PJ Hardtack]

Care for a little cheese with that whine .... ;>)

[Ranch 13]

According to the info in my Lyman 48th edtion Reloading handbook,(second printing in 2007) they used the pressure test gun with a 36 twist, and a Navy Arms 1873 with a,,,,(drum roll please) are you ready? Don't guess now..... 1:20 inch twist.... That's a bare minimum of 7 years there have been new manufactured rifles with a 20 inch twist,, If there were accuracy problems, they would of surfaced by now,,, in force.

[Cliff Fendley]

Are there enough being used at long enough ranges for complaints to mount in large numbers?

[Ranch 13]

I know of some 73's ,66's and Henry repro's that have been used in leveraction side matches at various bcpr shoots , but as to what twist they have I couldn't say.

But I think you may have asked the golden question. How many folks shooting the 44-40 in it's various rifles of modern production shoot much past 50 or even 100 yds?
Hope your shoulder gets healed up and you get a good report on how that 20 twist performs.
I do know a few folks with recent 92's, Winchester has apparently been using the 26 in twist for quite some time as well, and those rifles have shot well out to 250.

[KirkD]

I could be wrong here, but too slow a twist has problems stabilizing heavier longer bullets, but too fast a twist doesn't hurt things. I am harkening back to my 45-90 days on this and could well be proven wrong by actual experience with other calibers. The bottom line is to actually shoot the thing and publish the results.

[yahoody]

IMO, there is a difference between someone who alters an Uberti into a gamer gun as opposed to someone who is buying this Win. for historical reasons or merely love of the name. I would also doubt that with the veritable ocean of short stroke kits and knowledge regarding the Uberti that hordes of buyers are going to get this new Win. model merely to be a real "operator".

I see the vast majority of the people buying one of these as those who have a true love for history.

I agree 100%..  guys that are buying full race guns for SASS aren't buying Winchesters to play at that game.  When you allow a Uberti, et all, and not a Winchester someone has their hats screwed on wrong IMO.

How about a Colt SAA  when they final start replacing that hand spring with a coil set up.  It is no question a competitive advantage.     Seems to me some have picked a mighty rocky field to plow.

[cpt dan blodgett]

Just got one of the new Miruko Winchesters 44-40 short rifles.  Will not enter the 1-16 1-20 1-36 or 1-what ever twist.  Like the rifle very much overall but am disappointed that they did not stamp the barrel, tang etc with the highly legible hiqh quality stamping of the original circa 1900 Winchesters.

[Wes Tancred]

Examples of the Winchester 1873 case hardened, 24-inch barrel, "sporter" in .44-40 (a 2014 SHOT Show Special, made in a quantity of 250) began appearing in small numbers on GunBroker in September, and then again in late November, with that trickle continuing until the past few days. I acquired one shortly before Christmas.



The only fault that I could find is that the rear sight, and especially its elevator, have an incorrect geometry that results in the sight sitting far too high for a given step. This was compensated by a front sight (Marbles style fine gold bead) that is somewhat taller than those on original rifles with this configuration. I plan to re-profile the elevator. Thankfully, the rear sight has a fine "U" notch like originals, rather than the coarse square-cut style employed by Uberti, who otherwise make an excellent replica of the Winchester sight.

I recommend that any-one who wants one of these check GunBroker regularly, searching under the terms—

Winchester 1873 44

—and de-selecting the "Used" category. Many on-line gun dealers list this model (Winchester #534217140), but so few rifles are available that they may be unable to fulfil an order.

These rifles are beautifully made, have highly figured American walnut stocks, and are drilled and tapped for tang sights. They do not have a safety catch or a rebounding hammer.

This is the model that Winchester should have made first, upon bringing the 1873 back to the market on its 140th anniversary in 2013. Now, they should make it a regularly catalogued item, and then perhaps offer the other original centre-fire calibres (.38-40 and .32-20).

A perhaps more exciting—and certainly more daring yet most astute—calibre offering would be the .22LR (originals were chambered in .22 Short or Long, not interchangeably). This would make for the best .22LR repeater on the market, and enable Winchester to once again have a fine .22 lever action rifle in their product line.

[stuck_in_73]

I looked yesterday and I believe there are still 1 or 2 sporters 24" octagon 44-40 left. I believe there are three left of the .357/38. Look forward to getting mine in here next week. Just fyi

[Cliff Fendley]

I don't care for the square cut Uberti rear sight. Otherwise it has the correct shape.

I can make a stock Uberti rear sight look just like an original Winchester in about 5 minutes with a couple round files. A dab of cold bluing and it looks factory.

The front sight has to be filed thinner too if you want it like the original 73. Also replacing it with a bead sight works well once the rear sight has been reshaped.

[w44wcf]

Wes,
Great looking rifle!  Thank you for sharing.

w44wcf

[Cannon Jockey]

Wes,

I also bought one of these sporting rifles in 44-40 just before Christmas.   See the "show us your Winchester" thread in this forum.

However, I also posted my thoughts in the review forum here starting with post #16.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,50558.0.html

My only real complaint is the undersized and over tapered octagonal barrel on this model.   I previously had an issue with the hammer block safety on the Miroku 1873 short rifle I bought last year, but it was a freak occurrence.  I have eliminated the possibility of that ever happening again with a drop-in replacement part from Pioneer Gunworks.   The hammer block safety is essentially gone now.

Surely by now, you must have noticed that the barrel is dimensionally smaller than either an original or a Uberti.    Not in length, but in diameter.   It's 5% narrower between the flats at the breech tapering to 10% narrower between the flats at the muzzle.   I spotted it right away because to the much larger (1/16th inch) gap between the barrel and the magazine.  At first I thought the magazine hanger was off, but realized that because of the increased taper of the barrel--especially evident at the muzzle, they had to make the hanger longer to keep the magazine parallel to the bore.     This also required a taller front sight.     The Miroku sporting rifle only weighs 7.5 lbs., while a comparable original or Uberti will weigh just over 8 lb.    A good part of the weight reduction is the barrel on the Miroku.

Unlike the addition of the lawyer inspired safety block system, in my opinion this change was an ill conceived and pointless alteration to the Miroku reproduction.     They evidently ignored who their market would be for a rifle like this, i.e., Winchester collectors who want a modern made, but mostly authentic 1873 with Winchester stamped on the barrel---and by barrel, I mean one that is full sized like the original that it is supposed to represent.

I can't imagine that potential buyers for a reproduction in this price range care about a weight reduction since none of us are planning to lug it on a trek through the old west---especially if that reduction is going to affect the aesthetics.

The gun is beautiful and I will keep it, but that barrel anomaly just keeps nagging at me.   It bothered me enough that I sent an lengthy email letter to the Winchester service/marketing group about it---something I have never done before on a purchased product.

I did get an acknowledgement that they have my letter and that they will respond shortly.   I'm not expecting much, but at
least I got to vent a bit ---although I may have been too polite about it.


Oddly, while visiting the Winchester site, I noticed that they have added a new 1873 model as a regular stock item for 2015.  It is a special sporting rifle with 24 inch barrel, but the with addition of a pistol grip stock.  it appears to have no checkering.  The finger lever also has an extreme curve to it--more like a model 88 and not the gentle curve that a 73 should have for a pistol grip configuration.



What's even more intriguing, is that the new model's weight is listed at 8 lbs., rather than 7.5 lbs.   A pistol grip stock would not account for a 1/2 pound increase in weight, so I'm guessing they have changed the barrel back to the correct dimension.

I know Miroku makes a quality firearm, but I just wonder what dunderheaded "suit" is responsible for these unnecessary modifications to what is arguably the most iconic American lever gun ever made.

Cheers

[yahoody]

 "I just wonder what dunderheaded "


Have to agree on that one.  I do understand the rapid taper barrel on the high grade Winchester/Miruko/Navy Arms Model with a shot gun butt as a "special sporting rifle".   You could order that and get the weight of a round barrel with a rapid taper hex.  Not thrilled on the sight set up or the barrel roll marks how ever. But once you start making "production" guns why not keep them original as possible.

The heavy curve on the lever is sad.  I won't own one.  They did the same to the '86.  Almost a '71 lever now on the pistol grip guns.  Really disappointing.