Winchester May Reintroduce The 1873

[Mike]

  I have one origanal and three Uberti 73 and I would get a new 73 by Winchester japan ltd if they ever get to NZ.
but the only real one is the 3rd mod I own.

[Cliff Fendley]

Miroku is not owned by the company.

Look, I have nothing against Miroku, they make great firearms, is there quality control better than the Italians? In my personal experience yes it is, I have never seen anything but top notch work in any Miroku gun I have handled.

My point is they had the opportunity here to hit a home run and they smacked a single instead. A large portion of the customer base for these type guns are into historical accuracy and some on here have even said that is why they want one because it actually say Winchester. Problem is the way it is marked totally cancels out the Winchester marking, the Made in Japan-Miroku are bigger letters than the Winchester.

They could have marked the guns like Uberti does, the markings on an original 73 are small enough you have to be fairly close to read it so with the Winchester name on it in a manner similar to the original Winchesters it would have been a nice touch.

Would it have been exact? NO. They can't mark them exact because after all the gun is not made in New Haven it's made in Japan by a totally separate company. Still if they had marked them like an original you couldn't see the made in Japan without close observation. The way the guns are now I can read the made in Japan across the room.

Also as Abelene said they should have made the marking on the receiver tang right instead of some gawdy block lettering. The Cimarrons have it right, or very close.

If they had just done that and the lever throw like an original would have made the gun more desirable than a Uberti to those wanting an accurate reproduction. As it is the Uberti is a more accurate reproduction no two ways about it.

I own the reproduction guns because they are LIKE the old guns, if they had gotten it right I would be first in line for one in 44wcf. Not so much because it says Winchester but because Miroku make great guns.

[Major 2]

Gentlemen this thread is back    it has been edited.

Please enjoy your thread, and please keep it civil ....Our aim is to please , your aim will be appreciated
Thanks ....the maintenance dept.

[Ranch 13]

Friend of mine emailed this evening and he got ahold of one of these new ones in 357. Says that so far there is nothing he can find that he doesn't like about it.
I'm still holding out for the 38wcf.

[Wes Tancred]

Thank you, Major, for reinstating the discussion.

Despite the changes, over the years, in what exactly constitutes Winchester as a brand, and the fact that the classic lever-action rifles are produced in a factory in Japan, I consider the reintroduction of the 1873 a historic event. I shall purchase a full-length, case-hardened rifle in .44-40, as soon as I can find one for sale.

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I shall purchase a full-length, case-hardened rifle in .44-40, as soon as I can find one for sale.

Well, surely out of all the first 250 already sold one will inevitably find its way to Gunbroker, albeit at an inflated price. Hopefully, the seller will post some excellent photos for us to peruse. 

[Abilene]

I will find out I guess, I have a new rifle coming and have plans to set it up for long range. 1 in 20 just seems fast for a 200 grain bullet.

I guess they have the fast rate because those same barrels are used for 44 mag where some people are shooting 270 grain or better with that new heathen smokeless powder.

Even for that Uberti 1 and 20 seems fast, Miroku is probably more correct with the 1 and 26.

I was asked if Uberti had changed their twist rate on 44-40.  Even though the Uberti bore-groove-twist chart on Cimarron's website says 44-40 is 1 in 20", and then says 44-40 rifle is 1 in 36", I just measured a new 44-40 20" rifle and it appears to be 1 in 20".  So if it used to be 1 in 36" then I could not say when it was changed.

[Cliff Fendley]

I was asked if Uberti had changed their twist rate on 44-40.  Even though the Uberti bore-groove-twist chart on Cimarron's website says 44-40 is 1 in 20", and then says 44-40 rifle is 1 in 36", I just measured a new 44-40 20" rifle and it appears to be 1 in 20".  So if it used to be 1 in 36" then I could not say when it was changed.

Where did you find that on Cimarrons website? I couldn't find it the other day when I looked. I'm sure it used to be on their site.

[Abilene]

Where did you find that on Cimarrons website? I couldn't find it the other day when I looked. I'm sure it used to be on their site.

At the bottom of the home page, under "Product Support"

[Cliff Fendley]

Ah, I see it now. The newer rifles I've checked are also 1-20 for the 44-40. The only one I have with 1-36 is a Navy Arms one that is fairly old.

If the previous mentioned info is correct it appears Miroku split the difference with the 1-26.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I was asked if Uberti had changed their twist rate on 44-40.  Even though the Uberti bore-groove-twist chart on Cimarron's website says 44-40 is 1 in 20", and then says 44-40 rifle is 1 in 36", I just measured a new 44-40 20" rifle and it appears to be 1 in 20".  So if it used to be 1 in 36" then I could not say when it was changed.

This is awful news, IMO. The Greenhill Formula (which IMO works for BPCR) shows that a 0.625" long Lyman 427098 bullet is perfect for the 1 in 36 ROT at 1,200 fps. I cannot believe that a 1 in 20" will give any decent accuracy. Time for Mr. Harvey to call the Italians for a butt chewin'!!!

[KirkD]

Does anyone have experience as to what size of groups these different twist rates are giving at 200 yards? My original Model 1873 can give pretty good groups at 200 yards (best group was 2" for four shots), but I do not know the twist rate.

[Cliff Fendley]

Kirk, Original Winchester 73 44wcf has a 1-36 twist.

[KirkD]

Kirk, Original Winchester 73 44wcf has a 1-36 twist.

I didn't realize it was that slow. Seems to work very well, though, with 205 grain cast bullets at 200 yards, using original BP velocities.

[Ranch 13]

According to an Ideal handbook from the 1890's, for the 44 wcf, Winchester used 36 twist, Remington used 20, and Colt used 16 for everything.
Given the accuracy that modern 44 specials, and magnums get from 20 twist barrels, I would think the 44 wcf would follow right along.

[PJ Hardtack]

People worry about bullet overstabilization with fast twists.

When I ordered my Shiloh 50-70 carbine, I had a conversation with Kirk about this. My Shiloh 50-70 Military Rifle has 1x36" and it will not stabilize heavy (600 gr) bullets. They also HURT!
The carbine came with a 1x26" (I believe) and it stabilizes 375 to 450 gr bullets with aplomb. I sold the 600 gr mould before I bought the carbine. It's a left hand twist, BTW, whereas all my other Shilohs are RH. Go figure .....

I presume that the same laws of physics apply to all calibres.

[Blair]

The original 44WCF used a rather light 200 grain weight bullet. (light for a long arm at the time)
The 1-36 ROT would have work well for this lighter bullet. The Carbine's ROT may have been a little faster that the Rifle. Barrel length being a factor.

P J,
In my opinion, you and what you were told are correct.
Heavy/Long bullets require a faster ROT to stabilize them over greater distances. And yes, the heavy/long bullets do hurt!
My best,
Blair

[PJ Hardtack]

Shiloh caters to the long range BPCR crowd. If anyone knows what works re: bullet weight/rate of twist, it's these guys!

Over the years, the ROT in BPCR's and their bullet weights has increased to the point where the only resemblance to the original cartridges is the head stamp!

And we get ansty about our lever actions CAS rifles .... ;>)

Might be an issue - IF we arrived at events on horseback or in a horse drawn wagon.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Few people shoot .44 Mag./.44 Spec. in LEVER ACTIONS and those that do use longer 240 gr. bullets almost exclusively as well as smokeless powder IMO. As well, we're talking about 44-40 here so it's irrelevant. The 1 in 20 ROT will give poor accuracy for those who shoot BLACKPOWDER loads duplicating original specs.

I sent Uberti an -email in Italy and have heard nothing.  

[Cliff Fendley]

FCK, Other than possibly more fouling with black powder what specifically will the faster rate of twist do to cause poor accuracy in the 44wcf?

Any long range shooting I've done so far I've done with my 1-36 twist Navy Arms Henry.

I am going to try a couple of the newer 1-20 rifles this summer or as soon as my arm is well enough. I do know my Uberti 66 1-20 twist shoots really good out to 75 yards. What would cause them to all of a sudden make a sharp turn at a farther distance?