Help!! Needle sticking problem

daddyeaux · December 17, 2012, 07:21:50 PM

Guys, all of a sudden my Cobra CM4 has developed a problem with the needle sticking in the leather on the up stroke. When it does this it pulls the leather up with it when the needle is coming up. And at the same time it does not pick up the thread from the bobbin so I lose a stich. I have had it do this on leather as light as 4-5 oz. I changed the needle thinking it might be dull but it did it again. I haven't had time to call Steve yet.

Cliff Fendley · December 17, 2012, 08:00:12 PM

I had this problem almost immediately with mine. I found that you have to run a lot more presser foot tension than Steve had it adjusted when it arrived. I never had the problem with lighter material like you had but had my problems once I got about 4 layers of 8-10 oz leather. Anything less it sewed fine.

I called him and he said I was using hard leather and it needed to be cased. You can't case the leather or it will leave marks.

It still tries to do it on real thick heavy material. I have found that running S type needles work better in it also than the ones he sent with it. I got them from Weaver.

Two things I came to the conclusion made the difference. Even though he had a test piece of five layers of 8-10 oz leather in it, those were not glued and they appear to be some sort of import leather that isn't as firm as the Wickett and Craig and other high quality leather we are using. Combine that and the fact I am gluing my layers together make it a much harder piece for the needle to slide through.

That's my experience but I'm by no means an expert in this area. Any sewing machine experts here with more info or advice I'd like to hear it. I've just fumbled my way through this learning on my own since it was the first sewing machine I've owned.

Also for whatever reason the machine sews better with the thread I get from Weaver rather than what Steve sent. The Weaver thread seems to be bonded better and doesn't fray when going through hard heavy material.

Slowhand Bob · December 17, 2012, 08:25:22 PM

Check the easy stuff first. Look at/feel the needles tip and make sure there is not a burr there. Something I have done with a little success is to rub bees wax on the needle when sewing real thick leather at slow speeds. Usually if this seems to help, I would say the needle might be a bit dull? I still think it is a travesty that the makers of the high price machines do not combine resources to create an owners video course for their customers. This should cover set up, general use, special functions, trouble shooting and basic maintenance. Rant off!

daddyeaux · December 17, 2012, 08:37:51 PM

Thanks Cliff, I think the stiff leather might be the problem. I changed to a brand new needle and it still did the same so a dull needle is not it. I have the presser foot so tight now it almost leaves an impression in the leather. The two pieces it is sticking in were dyed and then a sealer put on the leather. I guess I should sew first and then add the sealer later. The gun holster I sewed did just fine but it did not have a sealer on it. I will get some of the S needles as you suggested. Thanks for the help.

Cliff Fendley · December 18, 2012, 07:46:12 AM

That may be some of your additional problem. I generally dip dye so mine are all sewn up before anything else. I have had some thick leather projects that it put marks in from the presser foot because I had it so tight. They usually aren't bad and disappear when dying.

I've been down the road changing needles so that's why I didn't suggest that, I had it do the same thing with multiple brand new needles of different kinds.

Hopefully others will have some input on the subject.

Slowhand, Steve does send a pretty good video with the Cobra 4. It covers set up, threading the machine, sewing with it, how and when to make turns to get even stitching, timing the machine, etc. I guess he just can't cover everything problem we might encounter.

I think I will try your bees was suggestion. I had thought of it but figured it would be rubbed off the first couple stitches.

The last couple times I sewed skirting leather the needle squeaked when going through the leather. I guess I need to change the needle and see if thats the problem. Probably is since that one has been in the machine for a long time.

Slowhand Bob · December 18, 2012, 08:54:32 AM

Cliff, you are right on, concerning the Bees wax, it is not a solution but has gotten me past a rough spot a couple of times. It would likely behoove me to contact him and see if he would sell me a copy of the tape. Though my machine is a Toro, I think the two machines share the same ancestry, I even think the wife purchased it through him (kinda)? Since I have used the old Aero to handle lamination's right on 3/4" in the past, I still want to try using it to pre-punch heavy welted seams using a size larger needle. Boy am I piling a lot of catch-up chores on 2013 already!

Cliff Fendley · December 18, 2012, 09:07:20 AM

I think the basics of the machines are so close that the tape pretty much covers it. It seems most of the current machines are pretty much the same. They all appear to have copied the Juki. Steve used to work for Artisan and they are pretty much the same and my Cobra is basically the same machine as Gil's Adler. Some features are a little nicer on the Adler and some better on the Cobra.

The machining, fit and finish are better on the Adler but you pay for it. The Cobra 4 seems to have a deeper throat and more room to turn a project and I think the presser feet are a little better on the Cobra for tight places like stitching bullet loops.

There are the little differences but they operate the same. Steve's a nice guy, I'm sure he would sell a copy of the video. Maybe Santa Claus will bring it

Trailrider · December 18, 2012, 10:13:49 AM

I am not familiar with your machine. I have a Juki (Nakajima) TSC441, which is the basis for the FerdCo Bull, etc. I have used this machine since about 1975, sewing mostly Tandy/Leather Factory leather, both dyed and undyed. Early on, I found that I needed to use wax on the bobbin thread, though NOT on the main feed thread. I use Selari's cold wax (doesn't need to be heated). When I wind a bobbin, I run the bobbin thread through a wax pot that is bolted to the top of the machine. It tends to be messy, so I wind on about four bobbins at a time. I generally use #138 synthetic thread, both main and bobbin, to sew linings (2-3 oz and even 3-4 oz) to 6-7 or 7-8 oz holster bodies. I use #207 top and bottom to sew 4-5 oz cartridge loops to 8-9 oz. belt bodies, and #277 top and bottom to sew belt loops to holster bodies. As far as needles are concerned, when I use #138 thread, I use Schmetz systen 794 P #160 for #138 thread; 794 LL DYX3LL #180 for #207 thread; and 794 S Serv 1 #200 for #277 thread. Not sure what the designations mean, except for the 794 and the size numbers are, but that is what is on the packages of the needles. In addition, I use only nylon thread in these weights.

Maybe what you need to do is use larger needles? Hope this information is of some help.

Cliff Fendley · December 18, 2012, 11:20:23 AM

Trailrider, I did notice when my machine arrived Steve had it threaded with 346 thread and a 200 needle. I thought that could be causing the problem.

I stuck with that size needle and went to a 277 top thread. That seemed to make a bit of difference but I still had to run the presser foot tighter than the original adjustment.

From what I have found and what your saying that seems to be the recommended setup. I can't remember why Steve said he had it the other way but he had a reason. Either way it works better with the smaller thread with the 200 needle and your right, it appears to need a larger needle if one runs the 346.

daddyeaux · December 18, 2012, 11:48:23 AM

Thanks Trailrider for the needle info. Since I don't have a tax number I can't buy from Weaver. Where do you get your Schmetz needles? Right now I am using 277 nylon thread with the #25 needle that Steve sent with the maching. Maybe I should try using the #200 needle instead. This problem seems to occur only when I am sewing leather that has a sealer on it. I have been sewing holster with 2 layers of 9-10 oz and had no problem at all, only when I try the leather that has the sealer on it.

outrider · December 18, 2012, 02:19:02 PM

Keep in mind that the faster you run the machine the more friction the needle gets and therefore heats up...could be your heating the sealer to the point where it grabs the needle and tries to lift it.

I use 207 bottom and 277 top...polyester only and a 200 needle (the 200 is the same as a #25). I have had this problem before but putting a little more pressure on the presser foot helped. As far as needles buy direct from Schmetz...and get the diamond spear tip for leather. Also, try using some thread lubricant...althoguh I havn't used it in quite awhile it does help lubricate and cool the needle.

346 thread should be used with a 230 needle

Cliff Fendley · December 18, 2012, 03:45:59 PM

Outrider, how does one go about using thread lubricant on these type machines?

I had mine do it bad again today. I was making a project out of some left over Wickett and Craig carving leather and had forgotten how bad it was. I had to hold down on the piece as I was sewing it.

I haven't bought any of that leather from them for a long time, I have been using Wickett and Craig Skirting leather and any of the regular carving leather coming from Thoroughbred or Herman Oak.

daddyeaux · December 18, 2012, 04:47:56 PM

Boy it seems like this problem just won't go away. Outrider I am sewing very slow so I don't think the heat is a problem. I am going to try again tonight on a belt of 8-9 oz with a light coat of Tandy's spray sealer on it and a #23 needle and the 277 thread. Will let you know how it goes.

Slowhand Bob · December 18, 2012, 05:22:40 PM

When sewing,try to watch and see if a small loop of thread rises with the needle as it is pulling up through the leather. This frequently will be hand in hand with the leather getting lifted.

Trailrider · December 18, 2012, 11:00:13 PM

Quote from: Cliff Fendley on December 18, 2012, 11:20:23 AM
Trailrider, I did notice when my machine arrived Steve had it threaded with 346 thread and a 200 needle. I thought that could be causing the problem.
I stuck with that size needle and went to a 277 top thread. That seemed to make a bit of difference but I still had to run the presser foot tighter than the original adjustment.
From what I have found and what your saying that seems to be the recommended setup. I can't remember why Steve said he had it the other way but he had a reason. Either way it works better with the smaller thread with the 200 needle and your right, it appears to need a larger needle if one runs the 346.

I have a page from a leather industry magazine (unfortunately, I don't know when it was published, but it has been quite awhile). In it there are a number of recommendations from Ron JeanBlanc and Vernon Weaver. One is that most sewing machines are set up for left-hand twist thread (aka "Z" twist). Right-hand twist thread (so-called "S" twist) can cause difficulty in picking up the needle thread loop. Too, you should always use an "S" point for leather.

Because of the way my confuser handles these replies, I'm going to try to reproduce the chart in an additional post.

Trailrider · December 18, 2012, 11:22:21 PM

Needle/Thread Chart: (Can't find the publication or the date, but hopefully I haven't violated the copyright, as this has to be more than 17 years and more like twenty-five or thirty!

Needle System Needle Size Top Thread Bottom Thread

794LR 160 138 (2-3 cord) 69 (altho I have used 138 for the bottom thread

794S 180 207 207 or 138

794S SERV-1 200 207 207 or 138
200 277 277 or 207

794S SERV-1 230 277 277 or 207
230 346 277

794S SERV-1 250 346 277
250 415 346
Use "S" point only on leather and "R" point on nylon (material, not nylon thread)

"Vernon Weaver also pointed out that you don't always have to change thread tension when changing the size of the needle and/or thread." [I haven't changed the top thread or the presser foot setting since I got my machine twenty-odd years ago. Once in awhile I may have to change the bobbin tension, but generally not. On my Juki TSC441, the bobbin tension tales 17-1/2 turns of the adjustment screw for 138, 207 or 277, which is all I use. If the tensioner gets too gummed up with the wax, I may have to remove the screw and then clean the tensioner, then reassemble turning the screw that number of turns. The article stated that this should work on a bunch of Adler machines, as well as the Ferdinand Bull and Juki Pro-2000, which I believe are both based on the TS441.

As I mentioned previously, I run the bobbin thread through a wax pot attached to the machine and use Solari's cold liquid wax on the bobbin thread only. (Messy, but I could not get even tension stitches without it.

NOTE: The nomenclature of these needles may have changed, as I haven't been able to locate a source, but if you search on the 'Net you ought to be able to find comparable ones. These needle sizes are metric and you may need to convert to Singer sizes. I've got enough on hand so I haven't bought any in awhile. Not sure exactly where to buy more, but shouldn't be difficult to locate a vendor.

outrider · December 19, 2012, 06:55:18 AM

Cliff,

When I get home tonight I will take a picture of the thread lubricating pot on top of my machine....although I have not used it in quite awhile...do you ever get down this way (Chattanooga)?

Cliff Fendley · December 19, 2012, 02:36:16 PM

If I ever do get down that way with some extra time I'll sure let you know. Would love to meet up for a few minutes.

Massive · December 20, 2012, 05:45:14 AM

I only read through once, but the thing that jumped out at me is that the problem occurred when sewing through contact cement. The other thing is that the problem developed.

With one of my machines, I find I can't get through hardly any cement without everything going to hell, and needing a while tear down.

Contact cement is pretty evil to start with. Holster making would actually be perfect for vac bagging, and using some other glue that is waterproof like titebond III. I haven't tried that glue. I do run a little vac press for guitars and bigger ones for boats. It might be worth a try. Other options are hide glue if you want to go a little more authentic. Again, that would require research. For the most part it is crazy cool stuff, but it would not stand up to a good soaking, as in molding...

I wonder if moly lube would permanently lube needles, or if Ti needles are better at shedding cement. Bees wax is incredible tuff. I used to lubricate lathe centers with it and it would run many time longer than sophisticated silicon lubes.

I ran into a needle problem recently, and I got a big hook on the end of a needle. It only took a few seconds to polish the end of the needle and repoint it. Then the needle lasted longer than I would have expected a new one to last, and it is still going.

Steve has a 30 minute video on Youtube now, so if that is the same one, you don't need to ask for it.

Cliff Fendley · December 20, 2012, 07:11:20 AM

Barge Cement does claim to be waterproof on the can. I have submerged projects in water for hours without having any effect that I can tell. Maybe an experiment is in order.

I didn't mention it but the last time I had the trouble with the Wickett and Craig holster/carving leather it was not glued at all. Just two layers of hard leather was causing the problem.

The most common factor is hard dry leather. Glueing leather, especially hard pieces together just lets the layers reinforce one another and does sometimes seem to make it worse.

I have not found contact cement to be the only problem, it may escalate the problem but it's not the complete cause of the problem because it will also happen without the presence of glue. It's the leather, needle, thread, presser foot adjustment, etc, combination.