This is where the conversation needs to start

[Red Cent]

 Brother King, SASS #69031 

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27-June 06 Gender:Male Location:Black Hills....Summer after riding/ Texas-Winter...after skiing Interests:Harleys, bowhunting, bird hunting, telemark skiing, guitar, travel SASS# 69031
Pawnee Station Vindicators, CO... all my TX Clubs...I miss all y'all!
Posted Yesterday, 10:01 AM

While we wring our hands over how to assign blame to these tragic shootings, let's ask: What besides guns do so many of these tragedies have in common?

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft thenLuvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton,Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, beforekilling themselves. Klebold's medical records have never been made available tothe public. Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when heshot his grandfather, his grandfather's girlfriend and many fellow students atRed Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washingtonstate) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) whenhe took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has nomemory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favoriteaunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered bothhis grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in hisbedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed hisgrandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin)shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed hismother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had aZoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, openedfire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky.Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin)went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one siblingand almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and MitchellJohnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher,and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high schoolstudent in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat aclassmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatricdrugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into anelementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other childrenand two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) wasresponsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – schoolshooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after fivedays on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, IDwho out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin),Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledgehammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic's file, then attacked his younger brothersand sister.

Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish schoolshooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with severalother medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing fromProzac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled asuicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as apossible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft andother SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly afterhis Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin forgallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of thedrug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler anda University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. Hisfamily found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family'sGulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was onPaxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara's parents said "....the damn doctor wouldn't take her off it and I asked him to when we went in onthe second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction toPaxil...")

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was onPaxil when he committed suicide in 2002,

(Gareth's father could not accept his son'sdeath and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft whenshe hung herself in her family's detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatristbecause he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samplesof Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from alaundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killedhis father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters,trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide whilein his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physiciansuggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only forinsomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of anymental illness symptoms.

A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killedhis father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed afellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depressionand was taking Zoloft and "other drugs for the conditions."

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student,shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, beforekilling himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killedfive people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern IllinoisUniversity auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been takingProzac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had traceamounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18,had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded adozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot andwounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was onTrazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication fordepression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school

[bowiemaker]

Howdy
Now that there is all kinds of pills to take for all the mental problems . Wonder if any of these shooters were on any kind of medicines ? 

Almost all of them were and listed side effects include hostility and suicidal tendacies.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Today I went to deliver Christmas gifts to my Daughter. a kid across the street, mid-20s, tried to kill his Grandfather. I helped until the Police arrived then helped subdue and cuff the kid. One of the Officers told me that the kid had a History of violence and mental problems. What in Hades was he doing out in society? Maybe this time he'll get some help, that or prison because he'll be charged with 2 Felonies if they don't put him in a Mental Institution.

[Kent Shootwell]

If we look for a common thread to these crimes can it be that most are young people and it's been more and more common in the last 30 or less years. What changed? I suggest it's the computer. All or most people go on line for social networking, talking to strangers and not to any one that they may interact with in reality. Myspace, twitter, you tube and a host of others I'd guess. A few sad out casts regressing into world of apathetic readers that may even agree with them that they aren't to blame for their short comings. After all they may have been raised by daycare and it's easy to give them some pills rather then be parants. High capcity fire arms have been around a long time. World War II M1 carbine is a fine example or even the Civil War henry was in it's day a murders dream come true, yet few if any mass murders like we see since the internet.

[joec]

Today I went to deliver Christmas gifts to my Daughter. a kid across the street, mid-20s, tried to kill his Grandfather. I helped until the Police arrived then helped subdue and cuff the kid. One of the Officers told me that the kid had a History of violence and mental problems. What in Hades was he doing out in society? Maybe this time he'll get some help, that or prison because he'll be charged with 2 Felonies if they don't put him in a Mental Institution.

Back in the 80's the public mental institutes was closed and have never been opened since. A method of saving money I guess. Till then almost ever state had several which housed those with minor problems to the criminally insane. For the most part they was let loose on the streets to fend for themselves.

[joec]

If we look for a common thread to these crimes can it be that most are young people and it's been more and more common in the last 30 or less years. What changed? I suggest it's the computer. All or most people go on line for social networking, talking to strangers and not to any one that they may interact with in reality. Myspace, twitter, you tube and a host of others I'd guess. A few sad out casts regressing into world of apathetic readers that may even agree with them that they aren't to blame for their short comings. After all they may have been raised by daycare and it's easy to give them some pills rather then be parants. High capcity fire arms have been around a long time. World War II M1 carbine is a fine example or even the Civil War henry was in it's day a murders dream come true, yet few if any mass murders like we see since the internet.

Perhaps it is also the drugs they have given kids for a decade or so that are a bit on the hyperactive side they have new fancy names for today. A lot of it could have to do once they are off these drugs.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Looks like the problem could be with the medicines . Imagine that ?

[Bugscuffle]

This is probably going to sound to some of you like a "defense of my post". It is not. It is a clarification of what I was saying. The reasons that I proposed the law that it would be a federal felony to posses a gun not registered to yourself is that it would give police the opportunity to confiscate the guns and arrest those that possessed them through either a strawman purchase or that they "borrowed them" from a relative or friend. It would take guns off the streets and leave the law abiding gun owner in possession of their guns. Is it a perfect solution? No, but it is better than what we have now. What we have now is a few greedy and unprincipled people that will try to make a few bucks by making strawman purchases and reselling the guns to ANYONE with the cash to pay for them. Right now the strawman purchase argument is moot. The regulation is all but unenforceable. Will it make it harder for me to get a gun? Yes, maybe a little, but I will accept that inconvenience in exchange for the knowledge that at least some of the bad guys don't have guns anymore.

We must be as careful about this mental health question as we are about our gun rights. We cannot allow anyone to be able to summarily adjudicate anyone of us as being "unstable enough to be denied gun ownership". Who is going to make that decision? Just looking at the situation ion both Aurora, CO and Newtown, CT, there was NOT enough evidence to have deprived either person a gun based on mental deficiency. The young man in Newtown, was 20 years old, not old enough to own a gun, but that does not have any bearing on whether he was or was not mentally deficient. If we have people that are making these determinations for us, how long will it be before the paddy wagon will pull up in front of your house and the men in white coats will carry you off in a straightjacket because you had 400 rounds of ammunition in your house and that makes you a threat to the community.

[PJ Hardtack]

Bugs, you just don't get it do you ..... ?

The system you are advocating is exactly the system we have regarding handguns and just scrapped for long guns. It didn't work here, in New Zealand or South Africa, so why would it be any more successful anywhere else?

When we were required to be vetted in order to qualify for a firearms licence (two levels - long gun and/or handgun), the list of invasive questions was very intrusive and invasive of personal privacy. No other segment of our society would have been expected to put up with it.
The cost of the course was from $125 + and valid for five years. Failure to renew meant you were now a criminal in illegal possession, subject to confiscation of all firearms and severe fines and/or jail time.
Many chose to become 'paper criminals' by not registering themselves or their guns. With no Possession & Acquisition Licence (PAL for short), they could not legally possess, purchase or sell firearms and could not buy ammunition. Criminals laughed.

Most of these 'paper criminals' had been life long hunters and firearms owners; many of them veterans of WW II, Korea and Afghanistan. They didn't feel that they needed their governments approval to have what they had owned for a long time.
IPSC shooters couldn't have hi-cap mags, whereas every 'gang banger' had nothing but. Owners of FN-FALs couldn't shoot them unless their ranges were approved for 'restricted'/'prohibited' firearms, and that wasn't being granted.

What licencing and registration accomplished was to create a thriving black market that didn't exist before, and make millions of hitherto lawful citizens into criminals. Total effect on reducing gun crime - nil. Crime increased as illegal pot was exchanged for guns by those who chose not to jump through the hoops. Criminals never do.

Making it complicated, time consuming and expensive for lawful citizens to own or buy guns is just a smoke & mirrors, political knee jerk, 'feel good' reaction. It fostered ill will between gun owners and police, something that didn't exist before.

The lesson of history is that when guns and gun owners are registered, bans, prohibitions and confiscations are next. That's what happened to the Brits, Canucks, Kiwis and Aussies. Increasingly violent gun crimes was the overall net result.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Every street Cop will tell you that 'main streaming' mental subjects was a bad idea.

[GunClick Rick]

Well i think if we make marijuana legal that will fix alot of stuff Besides it only took 3 shots to kill a president back when i was in 5th grade.

[Shotgun Franklin]

Suppose my Cousin comes to visit during deer season and I loan him a gun to hunt. While in the woods he runs into a Game Warden and the gun is checked. Opps, there's a crime here.
I buy a gun from a friend of mine. No paperwork just cash. I get stopped and checked. Again it's a crime.
This won't work and only gives the Gov't more right to confiscate guns.

[PJ Hardtack]

Shotgun - right on!

Go back and re-read what I said above. When bureaucrats erect barriers between the police and lawful gun owners, they set the stage for anarchy.

Multiple checks, licences, approvals, whatever, it's just a matter of control. I like to remind people that your gun laws and ours were based on the 1938 Nazi Gun Laws that said who could own what guns of what type for what purpose.
When the US 1968 Gun Control Act was being drafted, Senator Thomas J. Dodd (D-CT) had his copy of the Nazi Gun Laws (brought back from the Nuremburg War Crimes Tribunal) translated by the Library of Congress. Four months later, the act was passed into law.

Don't think so? Think it's just another conspiracy theory? Get a Copy of "Gun Control - Gateway to Tyranny" by Aaron Zelman form the office of the JPFO - Jews For The Preservation of Firearms. It'll cost you $25, and well worth it.

The phraseology and terms used in your guns laws and ours are right out of the book! I was shocked when I read it. The only thing missing was the racial aspect, denying Jews guns.
Remember the phrase - "Papiere, bitte ..." from the movies where a grim faced Gestapo agent demands your documentation? Don't think it couldn't happen in your country nor mine. The Jews didn't think it would happen either.

While you're at it, get a copy of "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross - if you can find one under $200. Google it and download it as a PDF. This will shock you even more. The book was all but banned in Canada and I had to search like hell to find a copy. Ross was intercepted at the border and stopped from bringing copies into Canada for a book tour - by YOUR people, not ours.

Think it has something to say they don't want you to know?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The gunban fever is spreading to Canada.  Justin Trudeau, the son of the man that sent police into my house to seize my full auto, wants an "assault rifle ban" If he gets into power.  I guess he doesn't realize that most of them are already prohibited!

If either left leaning party takes power we too can expect to suffer from this malignancy! Curing the fever in the US will help check it here as well.

Fight the Fever with all your vigour!!

[Bugscuffle]

O.K. I proposed a solution and some (everyone that responded anyway) didn't like it. I told you in my original post that you wouldn't. But I presented a solution. That being that the police arresting and confiscating the guns of those in possesion of them without registration would reduce the number of guns in bad guys hands without changing the number og guns in goodguys hands. It may not have been the best solution, it may not have even been a good solution, but it was an attempt at a solution. That's a lot better than the rest of you have done. I see only complaints whining around and no solutions from you. If you have a better idea let's hear it, and I don't mean a useless generality. Give us a solution along with what and how you expect that your solution would help. Doggone it DO SOMETHING, even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!!!!

[1961MJS]

... If you have a better idea let's hear it, and I don't mean a useless generality. Give us a solution along with what and how you expect that your solution would help. Doggone it DO SOMETHING, even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!!!!

Hi Bugs

Unfortunately, you're thinking like a politician.  The Government MUST BE SEEN as doing SOMETHING.  That's not always the answer, we have more laws that I can obey right now anyway.

On the politician line, a good progressive politician would say that anyone paranoid enough to think they need a weapon of any sort is obviously too nuts to be allowed to have one.  Therefore, only those Americans that don't want a firearm are safe.  I'm surprised that Nasty Nancy and ole Harry Reid haven't thought of it yet.

On a positive note, I hear that several Midwest states are considering arming teachers and principals.

later

Mike
Norman OK

[c.o.jones]

MORE BUGSCUFFLE DRIVEL AS USUAL.

[Cliff Fendley]

O.K. I proposed a solution and some (everyone that responded anyway) didn't like it. I told you in my original post that you wouldn't. But I presented a solution. That being that the police arresting and confiscating the guns of those in possesion of them without registration would reduce the number of guns in bad guys hands without changing the number og guns in goodguys hands. It may not have been the best solution, it may not have even been a good solution, but it was an attempt at a solution. That's a lot better than the rest of you have done. I see only complaints whining around and no solutions from you. If you have a better idea let's hear it, and I don't mean a useless generality. Give us a solution along with what and how you expect that your solution would help. Doggone it DO SOMETHING, even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!!!!

Bugscuffle, you just flat out don't get it do you? How in the H----E------double L are the police going to go confiscate unregistered guns in the hands of criminals if they don't know they have them? They aren't going to know until they get caught doing a crime. They would already be arresting criminals with them if they knew they have them. Anybody that doesn't check out is already getting them illegally.

And no it's not better the others have done, if it's not a good solution then it's no solution at all. That's why right minded folks don't just start spouting off with crazy ideas like you are demanding they do.

GOOD GRIEF CHARLIE BROWN!!!!!!!

[Blair]

Enacting Laws that cannot be enforced, or enacting Laws that contradict the civil liberties of citizens that have not even been charged with a crime, let alone convicted of the said crime... flies in the face of all civil liberties.

[wildman1]

O.K. I proposed a solution and some (everyone that responded anyway) didn't like it. I told you in my original post that you wouldn't. But I presented a solution. That being that the police arresting and confiscating the guns of those in possesion of them without registration would reduce the number of guns in bad guys hands without changing the number og guns in goodguys hands. It may not have been the best solution, it may not have even been a good solution, but it was an attempt at a solution. That's a lot better than the rest of you have done. I see only complaints whining around and no solutions from you. If you have a better idea let's hear it, and I don't mean a useless generality. Give us a solution along with what and how you expect that your solution would help. Doggone it DO SOMETHING, even if it's wrong, DO SOMETHING!!!!

JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE AN 'IDEA' DOES NOT MAKE IT A 'SOLUTION'. WM