New Town, CT - opinion

[maldito gringo]

This sort of thing is getting sickiningly familiar. Nobody did this in the 1920's, yet. there were crazy people then, schools then, and anyone could walk into a hardware store and purchase a Thompson smg. What's changed for us? Brakedown of families, communities,
and a pervasive media that sells violence and tells us that unless we are famous we are nothing. You can bet that a dozen or so screenwriters are already working on a movie of the week while CNN tap dances on the bodies. This idiot's name will, unfortunately,
live on after the names of the victims are forgotten.

[PJ Hardtack]

Obviously, the point me and others were trying to make was a mite too subtle for Yeti.  Flaming us with comments that wouldn't be made in a face-to-face conversation doesn't add to the dialogue. I attribute this to well intentioned grief over a horrific and impossible to understand tragedy.
If there is anyone reading with a degree in sociology or criminal behaviour who would like to postulate a theory, I'm listening .....
These incidents are ever increasing in frequency and intensity, hyped by the MSM feeding on them with a frenzy.

But one doesn't need a PHd to deduce that the social fabric of a society is unraveling when it becomes common (almost acceptable) for people to drive drunk or engage in shooting innocent victims. Both are criminal, anti-social behaviour and while passing laws and incarcerating perpetrators might give a sense of justice to survivors, it masks the real problem without addressing it.

One difference between the criminal misuse of a vehicle compared to that of a firearm, is that generally, the driver survives to battle it out in court. In many cases, a mass shooter saves society the pain and expense of a trial.

"Nothing became his life so much as the leaving of it."  King Duncan in Shakespeare's "Macbeth"

[Green River Powell aka RonC]

Hargrave has hit the point exceedingly well.
Reading about this heinous event struck me hard. My first thought was like others on this site: what has gone wrong with society nowadays? What have we become? Well, we are no different than we were in the past.

The fact is that it is no different now than it was then. The peak of mass killings happened in the 1920s. I just read some interviews of criminologists from Northeast University and Minnesota Dept. of Corrections who have written about mass murders. It seems there is no increase in such events. From Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America: "While mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s." And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

That is evidence that there is and was craziness and evil in the world.

As someone said: "People are already offering up solutions to this tragedy. There isn't one. Evil people exist. They always will. Some people are simply born broken. They want to rape, kill and hurt. You can prepare for them, look out for them, and do your best to be vigilant, but you can't legislate them or counsel them to not be broken."
Yes, that sounds pessimistic, but it also reeks of reality.
Ron

[PJ Hardtack]

RonC

Think there might be a correlation between the activities of the KKK and the bootlegger battles brought about by the Volstead Act that bumped up those stats from the 1920s?

Now it isn't racial violence or booze peddlers taking out rivals, it's any pathological, anti-social non-entity with access to guns who wants his 15 minutes of infamy in the MSM.

[yeti76620]

Master Hardtack Sir....  You're making more sense over on the Barracks side on this matter as I was calling you and Master Blair {as there are NO others} out on mix'n apples & oranges as I also have NO PROBLEM doing so TO Ya'lls face.... I throw the BS flag on ya again Master Hardtack bring'n in automobiles to a firearms crime.....  That kook didn't jump into his Honda suck'n a bottle of whiskey and drive over all those poor souls....

As we BOTH stated.... You on the Barracks side.....  Children are being KILL'd IN GUN FREE ZONES!

Alcohol 'n Autos nut'n to do with it!

Master Powell 'n Master Maldito has a good handle on this issue as I see it....

[Green River Powell aka RonC]

RonC

Think there might be a correlation between the activities of the KKK and the bootlegger battles brought about by the Volstead Act that bumped up those stats from the 1920s?

Now it isn't racial violence or booze peddlers taking out rivals, it's any pathological, anti-social non-entity with access to guns who wants his 15 minutes of infamy in the MSM.

Interesting point, Hardtack. The link to organized crime and extremist groups like the KKK may play a role, but I don't know that data. What was striking was the even with the seemingly endless mass murders recently, the numbers of them are down from the 80s and 90s. The killing of innocents like this just hit so hard that we perceive that there really are seismic changes in society.

I work with 18-28 year olds every day at an engineering university and see mostly the positive side of them. Even with the social media and instant information and misinformation, they seem little different than I was and my friends were at that age.

Several of my relatives and friends are LEOs. They see the bad side every day. The difference from the past is the loss of respect for life. The drug gangs and neighborhood gangs are ruthless and individuals accept the fact that they won't make it until the age of 21. But those aren't the people who are doing this mass murders. The mass murderers are just crazy.

Ron

[PJ Hardtack]

A little reality check, Yeti - y'all ain't saying' nuthin' to my face. You're sittin' nice and safe behind your keyboard beakin' off with your rant. In the cyber world, that's considering bullying.

We're on the same side, if you hadn't noticed. I appreciate the use of the words "Master" and "Sir, but they're unnecessary between peers. Throw your "BS flag" over someone else and spare us your venomous, inflammatory rhetoric  - y'all.

For the more rational amongst us, Morgan Freeman has made a statement as to why he thinks these events are happening, each successive event more horrific than the last. He lays the blame at the feet of the main stream media who hype it. It's his opinion that these cretins would off them selves in obscurity in their basements were it not for the media hyperbole.

He may be onto something .....

It's also a fact that some of the most horrific mass killings were set fires and explosions. Timothy McVeigh comes to mind.

[yeti76620]

A little reality check, Yeti - y'all ain't saying' nuthin' to my face. You're sittin' nice and safe behind your keyboard beakin' off with your rant. In the cyber world, that's considering bullying.

We're on the same side, if you hadn't noticed. I appreciate the use of the words "Master" and "Sir, but they're unnecessary between peers. Throw your "BS flag" over someone else and spare us your venomous, inflammatory rhetoric  - y'all.

For the more rational amongst us, Morgan Freeman has made a statement as to why he thinks these events are happening, each successive event more horrific than the last. He lays the blame at the feet of the main stream media who hype it. It's his opinion that these cretins would off them selves in obscurity in their basements were it not for the media hyperbole.

He may be onto something .....

REALLY?......... BULLY'n      

God Bless Ya Li'l Ol' Thin Skin Heart....        


Reality check right back at ya....  Freeman's a wolf in sheep's clothing...IMHO

How 'bout eliminating "Gun Free Zones" for evil is aways among us...

[Professor Marvel]

Whilst I have no hard numbers or studies to cite at the moment, I would like to make some observations -
please feel free to offer factual corrections .

- the current level of gang violence appears similar to that of the infamous gangs of New York in the 1890's
and that of the Hong Kong "Tong Societies" in the 1920's. We also have an unprecedented level and availability
of realistic blood-bath movies and video games, not to mention "cage-fighting" and illegal dog-fighting,
cock-fighting and "fight-clubs.

-The world has been engaged in non-stop MidEast wars, "brush wars" and suicide bombings for what, 15 years? with instant TV
coverage.  

- Corporate & Political thievery is rampant, and seemingly goes unpunished ( just part of the overall picture)

- An entire generation has grown up immersed in this. Like it or not, we are globally immersed in
this mire, and I too do not see much of a moral compass in the mainstream. One could liken this
time to the "bloodbath entertainments" and moral failings during the Fall of Rome.

Hardtack wrote:
>For the more rational amongst us, Morgan Freeman has made a statement as to why he thinks these events are happening, each >successive event more horrific than the last. He lays the blame at the feet of the main stream media who hype it. It's his opinion >that these cretins would off them selves in obscurity in their basements were it not for the media hyperbole.

That is a very valid point. What would happen if ONLY THE FACTS were published, without sensationalism (yeah right) and the Networks were literally banned (and fined excessive amounts if violated) from identifying the Perpetator?
No Fame, no glory, the psycho passes unnoticed into the special hell waiting just for him.

Whilst it is natural for thoughtful folk to try to understand "why did this happen", the reasons for such psychotic behaviour
may be forever beyond our grasp.

It is also natural (but unfortunate) for some people to react instinctively out of fear and seek to banish whatever
instrument may have been used in the latest attrocity. However, we are all in agreement here that such actions are useless.

The concept of "Gun Free Zones"
- appears to be a pathological fear-based response
- does nothing to provide actual security
- in actuality provides a "safe" hunting ground for the psycopathic predator who actually expects to die anyway.
- has been clearly proven that it DOES NOT WORK

Some would (and have) suggested an armed guard presence in every school, but
- that is not financially viable
- it is unwise as I feel it would only be another useless gesture much like the TSA.
- the one or two uniformed gaurds become the first target (do not be fooled,  the video games are teaching these psycho-kids )
- The Courts have already upheld that Police Agencies are not responsible to provide protection!

Even now an online White House  petition for "stricter gun control" has reached the signature level required for "White House Response".

Lockable (internal deadbolt) cement filled steel firedoors, Bullet Resistant Glass, and lockable hallway gates are readily
available and would go a long way to providing real security. If Instituted at a local (grass-roots) level the Fed need not be
involved and only what is required locally need be purchased. But this passive effort will only go "so far".

A very valid case can be made that since the School Systems are responsible for students by virtue of "In Loco Parentis" I submit that the School Systems should further be responsible for the safety of the student via Active Roles instead of Passive.

The Nation has already spoken regarding "shall issue" CCW training & permits, and the statistics have clearly shown that
allowing citizens to defend themselves WORKS and has lowered Crime Rates.

I maintain that the solutions are more appropriate grass roots efforts to encourage, legalize, promote, and support the training of
School Teachers to include CCW, "Self Defense",  "First Responders",  "Trauma First Aid", and "Intruder Detection and Entry Denial ".

I have it directly from people who have been there and lived there, It does in fact work very well in Israel.  If only 20% of Teachers were trained and armed (without publicly identifying which ones) and the fact well advertised  in the media, the psycho's *will* be deterred and stopped. Several unarmed Adult students stopped the psycho at Virginia Tech, and there are numerous statistics of CCW citizens defending themselves that can be used.

I would also suggest one or more  White House petitions be put together using these ideas and promoted on the various gun related forums - there is no reason why WE cannot use the same tools to counter the phobic (but vocal) fearful minority.

Opponents will use emotional protests that
- "we do not want to make our schools into armed camps"
- "we cannot turn our schools into shooting galleries"

But such nonsense can be readily countered with facts if adressed ahead of time, rather than by replying after the emotional level is already raised
- ie : "opponents might say XYZ but facts clearly show that BlahBlahBalh."
- besides your solutions have been proven to "not work"

There are those more knowledgable in politics, organizing and opinion modification than I.
This is exactly the sort of thing that would need a professional politicizer to organize such as the folks the NRA employ.

Ron wrote:
>As someone said: "People are already offering up solutions to this tragedy. There isn't one. Evil people exist.
>They always will. Some people are simply born broken. They want to rape, kill and hurt. You can prepare for them,
>look out for them, and do your best to be vigilant, but you can't legislate them or counsel them to not be broken."

There is no solution to evil people and evil deeds.
It has been proven that legislation will not work.
Vigiliance is essential but not the solution.
The solution to the immediate problem is simple  - we must choose to defend ourselves and our children.



yhs
prof marvel

[GunClick Rick]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

[yeti76620]

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

.......and God Bless us ALL!

..........Amen

[Gen. Jackson]

[...] the one or two uniformed gaurds become the first target (do not be fooled,  the video games are teaching these psycho-kids )

While I agree with the gist of your opinion written herein, your statement concerning video games in relation to teaching violence and being a causation of said has no basis in scientific fact. You state your thesis without verifiable references.

The hypothesis that video games are the indirect cause of violence in impressionable young people is false. In truth, most social and psychological research regarding this topic has shown repeatedly that there is no such link between increased aggression, criminality, and the propensity towards anti-social behavior.

In actuality, "violent" video games may do the opposite in that it provides a venue, and outlet if you will, to vent a persons aggression and pent-up emotions. Like professional boxing or wrestling, which of course are violent sports but socially acceptable, video gaming may provide an avenue in which to release one's aggression without any actual or perceived harm.

An uniformed person could postulate that the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting is linked to violence, and that those involved in said, is teaching men to be aggressive and may lead them to criminal and / or anti-social and psychotic behavior. In other words, CAS may cause men to be violent - it could cause you to take your high capacity lever actions, sawed off shotguns, and powerful .45 Peacemakers to murder twenty elementary school children and that you are all a bunch of gun nuts. In the study of philosophy this would be called a logical fallacy; In layman's terms this would be referred to as "hogwash." The same as your statement regarding a link to video gaming and violence is also hogwash.

I hope that my analogy has been succinct.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Watching FACE THE NATION.  (Yup! we can get american TV here in the true north strong and free.)

The media are starting the debate on a gun-control response to Newtown

[Bugscuffle]

Do we have a "gun control problem" in America? No, we don't. Do we have a "crazy control" problem in America? Yes, we do. Do we have a "gun law enforcement" problem in America? Yes we do. Let's concentrate on the areas that we DO have a problem in and quit going on and on about those areas, weapons type, magazine capacity for instance, where we DO NOT have a problem. The media seems to go on and on about how the three guns used in the CT school shooting were "legally purchased". They may have been, but that is irrelevant. The shooter was in possession of that gun ILLEGALLY. He was twenty years old, too young to be in possession of a firearm, and had murdered the rightful owner in order to get those guns.

The media is going on about gun shows again. We can help here by using a little self discipline and caution in checking out the people that we sell or trade our guns to privately. When is the last time that you sold one of your guns in a private face to face sale? Did you ask to see I.D.? Did you verify that this person was a resident of your state? Did you even ask him if he was eligible to own a gun? Did you note down his name and address? If you were buying a gun in a face to face deal, did you offer to show I.D., proof of residence, a statement oral or written that you were eligible to receive the gun? If we are going to assert that WE are the responsible gun owners, we are going to have to SHOW it, not just say it. A little self policing can go a long way to eliminate the excuses and alleviate the angst that some of these gun grabbers are feeling.

These are not the only problems that we have and these may not be the ultimate solutions, but they just may be a reasonable start. Let's US be the proactive people here. Let's US be aggressive in preserving our rights by protecting ourselves from ourselves.

[PJ Hardtack]

Hear, hear ... ! Well said, Bugscuffle.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."  Pogo

It is a multi-faceted problem with no easy solution. We all have a role in this, and a lot at stake; both as citizens of so-called democratic societies and as gun owners.
I regard needing my government's permission to be a gun owner and they telling me what guns I can own under what conditions to be unacceptable, foreign to my concept of a free and democratic country, and too Orwellian for my comfort zone.

It has to be remembered that the framers of your Constitution regarded armed citizens as the best bulwark against an oppressive government. They strongly disliked standing armies as they traditionally support the governments that created them, and that is where their loyalties lie.

[GunClick Rick]

"It has to be remembered that the framers of your Constitution regarded armed citizens as the best bulwark against an oppressive government. They strongly disliked standing armies as they traditionally support the governments that created them, and that is where their loyalties lie."

And they had no idea the governments would have lazer beams and drones,and every thing else they got,i don't think the regularly armed citizen would have chance in a bug fart

[Professor Marvel]

While I agree with the gist of your opinion written herein, your statement concerning video games in relation to teaching violence and being a causation of said has no basis in scientific fact. You state your thesis without verifiable references.

...
I hope that my analogy has been succinct.

Thank you Gen Jackson, I would like to continue this discussion,  in order to maintain the continuity of this thread I am starting another.

Excellent point, Bugs, Self Policing (and advertising the fact) offers further proof of responsibility of Gun Owners, .

I would like to point out that there are online forms you can print out that are often used  (in our area at least) in private party sales - both parties get a copy, and it includes pertinant, useful, and verifiable data. I have seen cases where the drivers license was so worn as to be illegible  (or otherwise problermatic)  and the private seller refused to complete the transaction.

yhs
prof marvel

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

The sermon this morning at the Greek Orthodox church that I attend was on Newtown CT.  The priest mentioned that Bill Maher has gone on record as rejecting all prayers.  

[Camille Eonich]

I'm beginning to think that we should require everyone at at certain age to join the military as Israel does.  That way every one walking the street will know how to act in order to defend them self or someone else when needed and this fear of guns will ease.

PJ Hardtack linked this in another thread but it needs to be here too.

http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter/articles/2058168-Lt-Col-Dave-Grossman-to-cops-The-enemy-is-denial/

[Professor Marvel]

I'm beginning to think that we should require everyone at at certain age to join the military as Israel does.  That way every one walking the street will know how to act in order to defend them self or someone else when needed and this fear of guns will ease.

I am in complete agreement, Camille -
2 years of universal service directly after High School would go a long way to address any number of issues:
- respect for others and manners
- true teamwork
- discipline - even in simple matters, it seems so many of the kids lack the self-discipline to even complete homework assignments
- teach correct and safe fierarms handling
- establish a sense of serving something greater than themselves, and dispell some amount of selfishness
- they could include "citizenship" classes to include exactly what one's "rights" really are (there seems to be a huge misunderstanding there) as well as one's obligations.

Whilst Basic should include basic weapons training & familiarity (which can dispell much hoplophobia) , Those who have ethical/religious issues could select "non-combat" service in fields such as Medical, Communications, Computers, Office, etc.

yhs
prof marvel