URGENT PLEASE READ !

[Thumper]

I'm watching this travesty unfold in New Town CT and obsessing about how this can be prevented in the future. My solution is this and I have already offered my services to the local police department. I suggest a volunteer corp made up of veterans, combat preferrably, to volunteer one day a week each, without pay, to guard our schools either with lethal or non-lethal weapons, in daily groups of 2 or more and to likewise cover all afterhours functions at these locations. They are to be given communication devices to directly contact the local police and cartblanche for their actions upto but not including lethal means. Lethal means only to be used against a 100% known lethal threat. If you like the idea, then make the call to your local law enforcement agency now!

[PJ Hardtack]

Well, Thumper, while I empathize with your willingness to serve, I'll bet the local police and school authorities were less than receptive.
If it has come to the point where armed guards are necessary at schools, malls, churches, what have you, it is an indicator that society has lost it's collective moral compass. Gun control measures and vigilante action are just band aid solutions to a much greater problem. More armed citizens (CCW) in the right place at the right time helps, but again, it isn't the final answer.

When a mad man goes off the rails and engages in a shooting spree, the question most often asked is "Why did he have a gun?" when it ought to be "Why didn't anyone else?"

Every December 6th in Canada, we wallow in the blood of 16 young women shot and killed at L'Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec. That resulted in our now aborted long gun registry being established in 1995. The shooter's Mini 14 didn't require licencing at the time, but he was a licenced gun owner. So much for 'gun control' measures. Seems if something like this is going to happen, it happens in Quebec, as there have been other such incidents.

The real tragedy of that event was that the MEN obeyed the shooter's commands to leave the classroom without rushing and overpowering him. It was a co-ed engineering school and they had been conditioned to be 'girly men'. The shooter was the son of an Algerian misogynist, known to beat his son and wife.

One, just one licenced CCW individual could have saved those young women. But, you have to wonder what was going through the minds of those men who let their sisters die. I think I would have preferred to risk being shot as I don't think I could ever again look myself in the eye in a mirror for doing nothing.

It isn't just the presence or availability of guns. If that was the case, shooting ranges would be very dangerous places! I know of a couple of 'hits' that took place on ranges with rented guns and a few suicides, but generally, it is a polite, armed society of gun owners.

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

The crazies that do things like this are a very, very small part of society.  The anti gun folks are already sending petitions to congress and the President for stricter gun controls.  The real problem will not be looked at, because all the focus will be on the guns.  The government funding mental health would do far more to stop these actions than control ever will.

[Drayton Calhoun]

In 66 when Charles Whitman started shooting people from the tower one thing kept the death toll from being higher than it was, according to the police. Armed Citizens who returned his fire and kept his head down while the police entered the tower and ultimately killed him. But, what happened today, armed citizens wouldn't have helped at all. You can't stop all the crazies all the time. Banning guns won't stop it, they will just find another way of killing. People need to pay attention to the signs, nobody just snaps for no reason...family had to see something, but did they just ignore it? We may never know.

[Pitspitr]

"In the early 70's, Israel was faced with much greater problems of armed terrorist attacks on schools. The cry for more gun control was heard then too, but Israel very carefully analyzed all possible options before adopting the proactive position of arming and training their teachers. School shootings stopped and terrorists looked for easier targets. Gun control never has and never will stop criminals and madmen from carrying out acts of gun violence.

In our country, every time a misguided individual on psychiatric drugs goes on a killing spree, anti self-defense legislators, watch the polls and exploit the dead victims in order to fool the public into accepting more gun control. It is time our country finds some resolve and the will to tackle the real problem, which is rooting out the actual influences in the lives people hat predispose them to commit atrocities. The problem is not guns. Guns don't cause these incidents to occur any more than cameras cause child pornography or automobiles cause traffic fatalities. " Dr. Ignatius Piazza

[River City John]

"In the early 70's, Israel was faced with much greater problems of armed terrorist attacks on schools. The cry for more gun control was heard then too, but Israel very carefully analyzed all possible options before adopting the proactive position of arming and training their teachers. School shootings stopped and terrorists looked for easier targets. Gun control never has and never will stop criminals and madmen from carrying out acts of gun violence.

In our country, every time a misguided individual on psychiatric drugs goes on a killing spree, anti self-defense legislators, watch the polls and exploit the dead victims in order to fool the public into accepting more gun control. It is time our country finds some resolve and the will to tackle the real problem, which is rooting out the actual influences in the lives people hat predispose them to commit atrocities. The problem is not guns. Guns don't cause these incidents to occur any more than cameras cause child pornography or automobiles cause traffic fatalities. " Dr. Ignatius Piazza

Excellent!

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

Most police and sheriff depts. have Auxiliary Officers.  They are generally not paid but have all the powers of a certified officer, including the authority to carry weapons.  Instead of raising a corps of "volunteers" why not make use of these folks?  No need to "reinvent the wheel."

In all the states I'm aware of private citizens are prohibited from exercising the powers of a CCW permit on school grounds.  Let the legislature address this issue.  Or perhaps address the question by allowing teachers, administrators, maintenance personnel, etc. to become CCW holders and exercise the powers of such licenses to carry on school grounds.  I would not have any "heartburn" with mandating some additional, specialized training before granting such authority.

Raising a corps of "armed volunteers" carries with it a lot of potential problems.  Using existing structures is probably a better use of time and resources.

SQQ

[PJ Hardtack]

When you realize that mass shootings always take place in "Gun Free Zones" (including US Army bases), the solution becomes obvious ..... Shooters will not go where it is likely they will encounter return fire.

But, you can guarantee that politics will be played on the backs of the dead children just as it did after the shootings at Dunblane, Scotland, Tasmania, Canada, Sweden, Germany, etc. It will be seized upon as a golden opportunity to impose more restrictions and sanctions against civilian gun ownership.

If you want to acquire any more guns, now might be the time to do it.

[sail32]

Criminal elimination is what we need.

The Inquisition did not work; look at all the Protestants running around.

Prohibition did not work; look at all the liquor stores.
At least the politicians of that era were smart enough to realize banning alcohol did not work.

Drug control does not work, look at the prison statistics.
Unfortunately, the present politicians do not seem to be as smart as their predecessors.

Confessional, Doctor and Lawyer confidentially insure that any indication this sort of thing is going to happen, guarantees nothing will be said until it is too late.
Norway, now this!

The feeding frenzy of the yellow press on things like this becomes PR advertising, to guarantee it will happen again.

[PJ Hardtack]

"Probation didn't work" ?..... ;>)  I take it you meant "prohibition", the Volstead Act. People will not be legislated out of their preferred vices, be it alcohol or pot.
While it lasted, it sure made a p!ss pot full of money for a lot of crooks and corrupt politicians.

Banning guns and all the other crap Canadian gun owners have to endure doesn't prevent the criminal misuse of firearms; it created problem that didn't exist before and a thriving black market - drugs for guns.

[Professor Marvel]

crossposted ..
Whilst I have no hard numbers or studies to cite at the moment, I would like to make some observations -
please feel free to offer factual corrections .

- the current level of gang violence appears similar to that of the infamous gangs of New York in the 1890's
and that of the Hong Kong "Tong Societies" in the 1920's. We also have an unprecedented level and availability
of realistic blood-bath movies and video games, not to mention "cage-fighting" and illegal dog-fighting,
cock-fighting and "fight-clubs.

-The world has been engaged in non-stop MidEast wars, "brush wars" and suicide bombings for what, 15 years? with instant TV
coverage. 

- Corporate & Political thievery is rampant, and seemingly goes unpunished ( just part of the overall picture)

- An entire generation has grown up immersed in this. Like it or not, we are globally immersed in
this mire, and I too do not see much of a moral compass in the mainstream. One could liken this
time to the "bloodbath entertainments" and moral failings during the Fall of Rome.

Hardtack wrote:
>For the more rational amongst us, Morgan Freeman has made a statement as to why he thinks these events are happening, each >successive event more horrific than the last. He lays the blame at the feet of the main stream media who hype it. It's his opinion >that these cretins would off them selves in obscurity in their basements were it not for the media hyperbole.

That is a very valid point. What would happen if ONLY THE FACTS were published, without sensationalism (yeah right) and the Networks were literally banned (and fined excessive amounts if violated) from identifying the Perpetator?
No Fame, no glory, the psycho passes unnoticed into the special hell waiting just for him.

Whilst it is natural for thoughtful folk to try to understand "why did this happen", the reasons for such psychotic behaviour
may be forever beyond our grasp.

It is also natural (but unfortunate) for some people to react instinctively out of fear and seek to banish whatever
instrument may have been used in the latest attrocity. However, we are all in agreement here that such actions are useless.

The concept of "Gun Free Zones"
- appears to be a pathological fear-based response
- does nothing to provide actual security
- in actuality provides a "safe" hunting ground for the psycopathic predator who actually expects to die anyway.
- has been clearly proven that it DOES NOT WORK

Some would (and have) suggested an armed guard presence in every school, but
- that is not financially viable
- it is unwise as I feel it would only be another useless gesture much like the TSA.
- the one or two uniformed gaurds become the first target (do not be fooled,  the video games are teaching these psycho-kids )
- The Courts have already upheld that Police Agencies are not responsible to provide protection!

Even now an online White House  petition for "stricter gun control" has reached the signature level required for "White House Response".

Lockable (internal deadbolt) cement filled steel firedoors, Bullet Resistant Glass, and lockable hallway gates are readily
available and would go a long way to providing real security. If Instituted at a local (grass-roots) level the Fed need not be
involved and only what is required locally need be purchased. But this passive effort will only go "so far".

A very valid case can be made that since the School Systems are responsible for students by virtue of "In Loco Parentis" I submit that the School Systems should further be responsible for the safety of the student via Active Roles instead of Passive.

The Nation has already spoken regarding "shall issue" CCW training & permits, and the statistics have clearly shown that
allowing citizens to defend themselves WORKS and has lowered Crime Rates.

I maintain that the solutions are more appropriate grass roots efforts to encourage, legalize, promote, and support the training of
School Teachers to include CCW, "Self Defense",  "First Responders",  "Trauma First Aid", and "Intruder Detection and Entry Denial ".

Pitsptr has pointed out , and I have it directly from people who have been there and lived there, It does in fact work very well in Israel.  If only 20% of Teachers were trained and armed (without publicly identifying which ones) and the fact well advertised  in the media, the psycho's *will* be deterred and stopped. Several unarmed Adult students stopped the psycho at Virginia Tech, and there are numerous statistics of CCW citizens defending themselves that can be used.

I would also suggest one or more  White House petitions be put together using these ideas and promoted on the various gun related forums - there is no reason why WE cannot use the same tools to counter the phobic (but vocal) fearful minority.

Opponents will use emotional protests that
- "we do not want to make our schools into armed camps"
- "we cannot turn our schools into shooting galleries"

But such nonsense can be readily countered with facts if adressed ahead of time, rather than by replying after the emotional level is already raised
- ie : "opponents might say XYZ but facts clearly show that BlahBlahBalh."
- besides your solutions have been proven to "not work"

There are those more knowledgable in politics, organizing and opinion modification than I.
This is exactly the sort of thing that would need a professional politicizer to organize such as the folks the NRA employ.

Ron wrote:
>As someone said: "People are already offering up solutions to this tragedy. There isn't one. Evil people exist.
>They always will. Some people are simply born broken. They want to rape, kill and hurt. You can prepare for them,
>look out for them, and do your best to be vigilant, but you can't legislate them or counsel them to not be broken."

There is no solution to evil people and evil deeds.
It has been proven that legislation will not work.
Vigiliance is essential but not the solution.
The solution to the immediate problem is simple  - we must choose to defend ourselves and our children.



yhs
prof marvel

[PJ Hardtack]

I'm waiting to hear what psychiatric drugs the shooter was on or off.

The fall out from this is going to be crucial to many things, including the right to bears arms. Positive action is needed, but politicians will settle for the easiest target - private ownership of guns, blaming the object. It will garner public sympathy and support and be a lot cheaper than addressing the problem from a social science perspective.

The debate about the effect of violent video games is ongoing, but it is undeniable from the level of schoolyard and cyber-bullying that kids are lacking in empathy, seemingly disconnected from the harm they cause. In our day, a quick punch to the nose after school usually settled the matter. Now it's 'swarming'.

All kinds of idiotic postings are occurring on the social media right now; people making insensitive and inappropriate comments about the shootings. This isn't much different from the inflammatory rhetoric of the adult 'cyber-tigers' on any public forum.
On another gun forum I subscribe to, it isn't uncommon for moderators to interject, pointing out to some that 'Big Brother' monitors such sites and people 'red flag' themselves with threats of violence or admission of blatant disregard of firearms laws.

This sort of behaviour can come back and bite the offender on the butt as anything that goes out on the net becomes public property.

[River City John]

PJ, my response that evening, 12/14/2012 to posts made by some of my facebook friends:

Watching Disney's animated "Christmas Carol" tonight.
A much welcome distraction from the numbing sadness and disbelief, the anger, I feel over the tragedy at Sandy Hook in Connecticut.
Inevitably, the cries of 'ban all guns' has begun, and will wage on in the days to come.
As you all know, I enjoy the history, reenacting and competitive shooting, that firearms ownership provides me. I have worked hard to be a responsible and safe gun owner.
But I'm struggling with some inner conflict, to be sure, in trying to bring some sense out of this tragedy.
Dickens words right out of this novel seemed to offer some understanding:
"There are some upon this earth of yours," returned the Spirit, "who lay claim to know us, and who do their deeds of passion, pride, ill-will, hatred, envy, bigotry, and selfishness in our name, who are as strange to us and all our kith and kin, as if they had never lived. Remember that, and charge their doings on themselves, not us."


Then later my wife and I were talking, and she posed a "what if" question.

She asked, what if at some future point my daughters informed us that, out of concerns for the safety of their children, they were not comfortable allowing the grandkids into our house because there were firearms present. No matter protestations of all due caution and lockable gun safe. No matter that they consider me a "responsible gun owner". Just the bare truth that they did not want their kids around guns, period.

You know what? My guns would be gone in an instant.

RCJ

[PJ Hardtack]

RCJ

I was with you all the way until your final statement.

Appeasement has never worked on a personal or national level, and acquiescing is denying your history, your Constitution, your rights as an individual. You may regard such a sacrifice as being noble, and I see it as abdication of your responsibility.
Do you want your children living in a society where only the army, police and criminals have guns? That's called a police state, several of which exist in the world today.

When you need a gun, you need it bad; and when you need a cop in seconds, they are only minutes away. A handy gun beats dialling 911 ......

Why not put your daughters to the test with the 'loaded gun - Pit Bull' test': Ask them if they'd rather be in a locked room with (a) a loaded gun; or (b) a Pit Bull. Until someone picks it up, points and squeezes the trigger, it's just a metal object no different than any tool in your shop.

When Canadians were asked to register their long guns, the argument was that we should not object as we register our cars and even our dogs. We countered by saying that when criminals registered their guns, we'd register ours, and millions became 'paper criminals', refusing to ask their government's permission to own what they had previously owned for decades.

The individual provinces by and large did not check for registration docs and said they would not prosecute owners unless they committed crimes with their guns. In other words - it was bad law and richly deserved to be scrapped. But we are still required to be licenced, which is just as oppressive, if not more so.

My wife and I have entertained friends who expressed an abhorrence of firearms. We asked if it was guns themselves they abhorred, or if it was the way some people misused them.
We told them that we were gun people and they seemed to like us. They said that guns were designed for one thing, particularly handguns, and that was killing people.
So we told them that our guns must be faulty, as they hadn't killed anyone. Then we fed them venison. The irony of it escaped them.

[River City John]

My point was, out of love for our families we keep the gun, even ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice'.

What if the 'ultimate sacrifice' was to give up the gun or be estranged from your family.
RCJ

[PJ Hardtack]

Well RCJ, in my case, there has been long standing family estrangement, so I cannot comment.

I suggest that your "ultimate sacrifice" leaves them vulnerable to violent attack and you with no means of defending them or yourself.
This is 'victim mentality' and a strange notion of love.

I'm curious as to how you, as a gun owner, could have raised daughters who are hoplophobic, having an unreasoning fear of weaponry. Do they not know the role of firearms in establishing and maintaining liberty? It's part of the history of most countries and cultures, including your own.

"Political power comes out of the barrel of a gun."   Mao Tse Tung

[Professor Marvel]

My point was, out of love for our families we keep the gun, even ready to make the 'ultimate sacrifice'.

What if the 'ultimate sacrifice' was to give up the gun or be estranged from your family.
RCJ

My Good John -

Regarding possible Family fears,  I submit that you are not stuck with an "either-or" binary choice.

I  believe that submitting to an unreasonable and pathological fear-based ultimatum is not healthy, wise , or even needed. Remember that such a fear-based demand stems from an irrational emotional mindset which will not entertain rational fact-based discussion.

Further, if one gives in to such an irrational fear-based demand, what will the next demand be?

I would advise, should it come to such a scenario, that you neither agree, disagree, or argue, but calmly state
     " I understand your concern, I will deal with it."
then quietly lock away all firearms and accessories where they won't be found and simply "declare them gone".

It is not necessary to elaborate on the topic, but it is wise to come up with a simple reply and stick to it such as
      "They're gone, end of discussion"
and agree with your spouse to use only that and end all further conversation on the topic. If your daughter should  insist (ie, but what about your hobby?) stand firm with "They are gone, and I will not discuss this topic any further". It is neither lying nor  acquiescing, and refusing to discuss the topic keeps you from having to invent prevarication.

What "they" don't know and can't find won't hurt them. I do not believe that Full Disclosure to argumentative and/or unreasonable family members is ever a requirement. For example from my early childhood my mother forbade me from ever owning or riding motorcycles, so when I  bought and rode them I never discussed it. I enjoyed my Suzuki dirt bike and Yamaha Virago V-twin for many years and since I never mentioned them;  she never had cause to worry.


may I offer the following

1) paraphrase the old quote from Ben Franklin -
"Those who would give up Liberty to purchase Safety,  will find they have neither."

2) Even the Dalai Lama, the Bodhisattva of Compassion,  whom I admire greatly said
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)

3) James Earl Jones: "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

yhs
prof marvel

[Pitspitr]

I find it interesting that Gun Control proponants like to cite European crime rates as "proof" that gun control works. The statistics I've found don't bear this out. Luxemburg with nearly 0 gun ownership per 100,000 residents had a 9.01 murder rate in 2002. Switzerland on the other hand REQUIRES every male over the age of 18 to own a military style rifle and 1,000 rounds of ammunition, but in 2003 only had a murder rate of .99 per 100,000. 
Looks like gun control makes murder nearly 10 times as likely.

http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/library/chart-graph/european-gun-ownership-and-murder-rates

[cpt dan blodgett]

Pitspitr

I may be spliting a hair here but rather that require ownership, do not the Swiss issue the rifle.

[Pitspitr]

I may have misunderstood, but it was my understanding the the citizen owned the rifle. Regaurdless, the swiss have one of the highest gun ownership rates in Eroupe and a gun in every home.