What was the historical finish on the wood of an 1866 Winchester?

[G.W. Strong]

The finish on my Uberti 1866 was damaged so I stripped it. What was the historical finish originally applied to Winchester 1866s in the 1870s? I need to refinish it and I want it to be as authentic as possible.

[Chaparosa]

"Oil stained walnut stocks" according to Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms.
An "extremely fine plus" example that "retains most of its original oil finish" from a recent auction:

[Abilene]

Arthur Pirkle's book "Winchester Lever Action Repeating Firearms" says that an oil finish was standard but a varnished finish was a popular special order feature.  Looking at the awesome pictures on http://www.rarewinchesters.com/ shows lots of variation in the color and darkness, though certainly age is an issue with many of them.

[G.W. Strong]

I know that most oil finishes available now are just that "finishes" rather than oils. Would a historical "oil finish" be boiled linseed oil?  I have done Boiled Linseed Oil (BLO) scrubs on several military rifles. I know how to do that. If not BLO then what oil would have been used?

[G.W. Strong]

That makes me happy because I know what to do with Linseed oil. 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Hopalong,

I don't think you saw my '66 when you visited (since I was shooting my '92) but I Zip-Stripped the red/polyurethane shine off mine, put on several coats of BLO, (3 I think, with 24-48 hrs. wait between coats) then a couple coats of Tung oil.  (Also waiting 48 hrs. between coats.)  Thanks to the Tung oil, it still shines somewhat but now it's a shine from IN the wood, not on it.

[St. George]

Linseed Oil and Tung Oil are good.

Add some varnish and you're set.

Scouts Out!

[James Hunt]

I'm not sure that boiled linseed oil was used in those days, I don't know when it came about. More likely they would have used raw linseed oil (they used those on M1's in ww2 so I am thinking that raw linseed oil was used in the days we are interested in).

The difference is that boiled linseed oil includes some petroleum based stuff and drying agents with linseed oil to greatly speed up the drying time. Using raw linseed oil, it takes forever to dry. But I believe that when linseed oil is altered to BLO, some of those cool fatty acids that give the stock that reddish tone over the years are no longer there. Of course many guy's compensate for this by using a alcohol based leather dye to add in some red and brown before they apply the linseed oil or you can apply it afterwards if you want to change anything.

So if you got the time, raw linseed oil may be what you want for historical accuracy. Others may weigh in with more historical references, I have none - but conjecture based on what Springfield armory reportedly applied to stocks in the 40's.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

James, Howdy!

(Sorry to the others, but this is a bit off topic)

Didn't the Springfield Armory (and the other manufacturers as well, when making Military guns) dunk the stocks into a vat of linseed oil to get them "super-saturated?"

Thanks

[St. George]

No.

That would've softened the wood.

What one sees on used military rifles is the result of too much oil when placed into storage.

A new-condition rifle was relatively 'dry' - and needed to be treated with Linseed Oil or Tung Oil upon issue.

Scouts Out!

[James Hunt]

Hmmmm....., I am going to have to weigh in with Steel Horse here. I think they did dip them. But I am going by memory and that is always dangerous. I will have to pull out my Canfield and Duff references tonight.

I think the red tone came about over considerable time with the oxidation of linoleic acid, it was not an "issue" color. many try and duplicate it with stain today. Who wants to wait 20 years for your M1 to take on that beautiful rich tone of an old stock. Actually I have several old Winchesters with that beautiful tone.

Interesting info: http://www.garandgear.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=89:new-finishes&catid=39

Update: From the CMP website so pretty authoritative:

"As to the M1 Garand Rifle, it is believed that the original manufacturer's finish utilized boiled linseed oil into which the stocks were dipped and then dried."

found at:http://www.thecmp.org/Sales/askarmoreranswerwood_cleaning_article.htm#1

So two conflicting sources  on linseed oil but I'd guess I'd go with the CMP, appears they did dip and then hang dry the stocks. 

[ChuckBurrows]

Real boiled linseed oil (actually heated to above 375° F) based varnishes have been used as a gun finish for hundreds of years and is similar to the varnishes used on fine violins including Stradivarious (it was even used by the Egyptians as a wood finish long before guns were invented) - it is not the same though as today's hardware store "boiled" linseed oil which is not heat boiled at all, but just has chemical (mostly manganese) dryers added - the problem with using manganese as a dryer is that the oil drys from the outside in and the surface skin that forms actually inhibits proper drying - period boiled linseed oil varnishes used lead as a dryer and that drys from the inside out thus no surface skin to impede the drying.
Boiled linseed oil varnish was the most common fire arms finish up through the mid-1800's when "greased" (most likely oiled) finishes became more popular. Some gunmakers also used a spirit based varnish - gun maker Eric Kettenburg has done a ton of research on both types of period finishes and has published his findings. Bill Knight aka the mad monk, has also published a tome on period finishes that is very well researched.  No where in the period documentation have I read of 18th/19th century gunmakers using raw linseed oil for finishes - it is apparently an early/mid 20th Century innovation used for high production of military arms .
The common gunstock finish of the pre-1900 period was often two part - very thinned down seedlac/buttonlac (available from suppliers such as Kremer Pigmente) was used as a filler first and then the linseed oil finish was added - the combo while not waterproof was/is heavily water resistant.
FWIW I've used the same finish on my guns and knife/hawk handles for over 40 years and while it takes a bit more care than some modern finishes it works well ( depending on usage I re-apply a coat or two a couple of times a year).  If you'd like to see what such a finish looks like check out the tomahawk handles on my site - www.wrtcleather.com or look at the guns on Eric's site.

The linseed oil based varnish of the day was made by taking high quality cold pressed linseed oil and boiling it with the addition of various resins and white lead as a dryer. Then they often added air thickened real gum turpentine as a thinner (available from artist suppliers such as Dick Blick). When using this type finish it must be put on in VERY thin coats and allowed to dry between coats - lots of room temp or above moving air (a fan) and sunlight (UV) speeds the drying immensely. When done right it usually takes me only about 3-4 days to do a proper period finish, not the several months that is often touted for period oil finishes.

As for the reddish finishes - it was in fact often done by adding reddish tints such as dragon root to the finish - it is not just due to aged oil which usually goes blacker on wood rather than reddish - the so-called British/London Oil finish, used by gun makers such as H & H included/includes dragon root. On the other hand the real dark almost black stocks seen on some originals are usually due to:
1) the use of Aqua Fortis (ferric nitrate) as a "dye", mainly on maple stocks  - if not properly neutralized it will continue to darken due to UV exposure
2) Darkening of the linseed oil finish due to UV/oxidation
3) The use of asphaltum or pine tar in the finish

While no one makes an exact copy of the period varnishes on a commercial basis these days that I know of, Tried and True's oil varnish is close and can be easily made PC by adding lead stephanate as a dryer (some art supplies offer it or you can also buy white lead from some suppliers) and adding a bit more resin/rosin which is also available from suppliers such as Kremer Pigmente - it takes a bit of heat to combine them, but an old crock pot/fryer at around 400° F will do that easily - just do it with PLENTY of ventilation or outside.....you can also get real cold pressed linseed aka flaxseed oil from suppliers including health food stores and start from scratch .

FWIW - The usage of raw linseed oil on 20th Century firearms has nothing to do with pre-1900 gun finishes......seems they were smarter back then   and tung oil is also a 20th Century finish, widely used by the Japanese on their firearms - BTW-tung oil can be a cause of allergic reactions for some folks....

[Delmonico]

Chuck, isn't Dragon Root another name for Alkanet root  (Alkanna tinctoria)?

[St. George]

Thanks, Chuck...

You've saved me a lot of time explaining.

As to military firearms - any copy of 'Ordnance Rebuild Standards for Small Arms' and the associated memos regardling long-term storage, or receipt of materials from Ordnance address this - they were 'not' dipped - that would damage the wood - they were treated with Boiled Linseed Oil and Tung Oil as previously stated.

Scouts Out!

[JimBob]

Concerning U.S.military firearms only-

From Ordnance Memoranda No.22 Fabrication of Small Arms 1878-

19.Oiling-Coating the stock with raw linseed-oil applied with a brush

Rules for the Management of the U.S.Magazine Rifle Model of 1903,Caliber .30 1906 edition-

The stock and hand guard may be coated with raw linseed oil and polished by rubbing with hand.

Raw linseed oil was the finish of choice at the National Armories,primary source material confirms it as well as TOE lists and Ordnance SNLs.New manufacture stocks from at least the M1861 RM on were routinely dipped in heated vats of raw linseed oil,not soaked but dipped,and let dry.

[James Hunt]

JimBob: Great reference! Thanks.

Chuck Burrows: Wow, I hope there isn't a test later. I had to read that about three times and google some of the words. Very good work.

[JimBob]

About those redish colored stocks.Prior to WW1 gunstocks were often given a stain made from logwood which gave a reddish tint to walnut before being oiled.Springfield Armory used it prior to WW1 on 03 and Krag stocks,no idea how much earlier than that.Logwood came from Central America and became expensive and hard to get during WW1,it's use faded as everyone went to an oil-based stain and never went back to the logwood stain.

[St. George]

Don't forget that the wood was old-growth American black walnut - we ran out of a lot of that for the general use in stocks after the Great War, and it's difficult to duplicate - 'especially' on Italian walnut.

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

Also soil type and climate make a difference on walnut, a lot of the walnut on the older stocks was cut a lot closer to the gun factories, today a lot of it comes out of Missouri and Arkansas.

[ChuckBurrows]

Chuck, isn't Dragon Root another name for Alkanet root  (Alkanna tinctoria)?

nope dragon root is Arisaema dracontium, but thanks for the reminder because Alkanet root was used as well, especially by the Brits...

and to the others - you are most welcome - finishing wood in a period manner has been a passion for me almost as long as leather work has - 51 years and counting...