How to obtain the dark russet look

[Camano Ridge]

In Packing Iron many of the holsters were made from dark russet skirting. Although russet is available no one I have found sells Dark Russet in fact a couple of company's have said I would have a long and fruitless search. I am trying to stay away from modern dyes so does anyone have any tricks for getting the dark russet look the dark Brown almost black with a reddish or rust tinge to it?

[TwoWalks Baldridge]

In Packing Iron many of the holsters were made from dark russet skirting. Although russet is available no one I have found sells Dark Russet in fact a couple of company's have said I would have a long and fruitless search. I am trying to stay away from modern dyes so does anyone have any tricks for getting the dark russet look the dark Brown almost black with a reddish or rust tinge to it?

I have a guess that the answer is "AOS"  Age, Oil, Sunlight. The holsters in packing Iron are old holsters that have been exposed to oils and sunlight for a long period of time.  If you oil the russet leather you reference and then leave it exposed to the sun it will darken.

[Camano Ridge]

Twowalks thanks for the input. That is along the lines of my thinking. I do use oil and sun to tan my holsters, however I can't get that reddish brown look. I realize age has a lot to do with the dark almost black look. The russet that I can find seems to be llighter and with oil and sun is does darken and does get a some what reddis brown but not deep like pictured in packing iron. THe color is more of a deep reddish rust color and brown. Page 81 of Pcking Iron gives a good example of the coloring I am looking at. However I realize much of the darkening is from age.

[Cliff Fendley]

Home made walnut stain and lots of oil and sun will get you this. Sometimes I get a more red. Wickett and Craig leather seems to get more red than the Herman Oak. This holster is Herman Oak leather.

[Slowhand Bob]

It sounds like you are describing what I am calling a dark Chestnut.  Using the base dyes that I buy (Weaver), it is four parts Tan and one part Mahogany.  I actually thin with equal parts alcohol to allow me to control saturation of color but it would take about three or four 'applied' applications of my mix to get to really dark.  Since light control is needed for true color photo renditions and I am terrible at that, probably no need to take pictures!   

[Cliff Fendley]

I hate how Packing Iron calls everything Russet.

The leather everyone sells today as Russet isn't what I grew up thinking the color Russet is. I always thought Russet was a darker but more orangish brown but lighter than Chestnut. You have to oil Russet skirting leather quite a bit to get it to what I thought russet color really is.

The color you want is also pretty much Wickett and Craig chestnut skirting leather if you oil it darker.

[Camano Ridge]

Thanks for the hep. That gives me some ideas. I am trying to stay away from manufactured dyes. THe customer want's the holster as historically correct as possible.

[Trailrider]

Part of the problem with determining the color of "Russet" leather is that the terminology has changed. Originally "russet" referred to "stuffed russet", meaning leather impreganted with oil as opposed to leather that was dyed. The color that resulted from impregnating the leather with oil has become to be known as "russet". But this isn't very exact, and depends on the porosity of the leather and the amount of oil applied (or, in the modern sense, how the leather was dyed or at least processed). I dye my leather, and, depending on the customer's preference, tend to use Fiebing's spirit-based British Tan or a mixture of Russet with a little Medium Brown or some other mix, again, depending. (I usually send samples of the mix to the customer, if requested.)

[bedbugbilly]

Interesting question - I have often wondered the same.

So,  when you are "oiling" . . . what are you using?  I never use Neatsfoot unless it is on something like harness.  Now, I'm primarily using pure virgin olive oil on my holsters and belts as I've had the best success with that.  Is there something better?

I'm bad with colors - that's why my wife makes me wear white socks so I won't even attempt to describe in terms of reddish, orangish, etc.  When I think of "Russet" though . . . I primarily think of the color of much of the leather from say the WW I era - garrison belts, sam browne belts, etc. 

I do my leatherwork when I'm in Arizona during the winters - the nice thing about that is the great sunshine we have so it's pretty easy to set something out to let the sun work on it.  Unfortunately, we didn't go out as early this year as we had to put my mother-in-law in assisted living - if I had to depend on the sunshine here in Michigan I'd be out of luck! 

[Cliff Fendley]

I've tried olive oil in recent years after hearing some use it but I don't really care for it. I use pure neatsfoot oil and buy it five gallon at a time.

I'm curious why you wouldn't want to use neatsfoot oil on a holster.

I watched a video of John Bianci dunking an entire gun rig into a big vat of neatsfoot oil and let it soak. I don't do that but I have gotten very liberal with it on leather products before and haven't seen a problem.

I've been putting pure neatsfoot oil on everything leather since I was a kid and haven't seen a problem with it. We even wiped our guns stocks and other wood items down with it. All of that stuff of my grandpas is still in great shape today.

[Slowhand Bob]

I also use NF, but somewhat on the sparing side.  The last step before top coating I sponge on a thin coat  to the smooth side only and let it set for at least 24hrs before the top coat.  What I call a thin coat is an amount that will completely be absorbed within five minutes or less after application on heavy leather.  If my leather was warm water cased it will still be shell hard when I am finished.

[GunClick Rick]

Would this be considered Russet?  You guys are always making vinigaroon with steel wool,could you do it with walnut stain??

[ChuckBurrows]

Craig can you gives an example of what you mean by dark russet? is it the the real dark color used by some of the Montana makers? If so that was and is achieved by using an oil darkening liquid still available from Weaver leather.

On the other hand the medium dark reddish color as seen on many originals is often due to the use of oil and oxidation of the oil due to UV exposure and age. Another "cause" for the red tint was the use of hemlock tanned leather - unfortunately no longer made - up until a few years ago there was still one tannery making such leather and it had that reddish tint naturally.
Along with that is the fact that most veg tanned leather today is not made the same way as period leather was - the EPA has put the kibosh on period tanning methods on a commercial basis.....

re: neatsfoot oil - Fiebings still makes the real McCoy made from cow leg bones/hoofs but others neatsfoot oil is in fact rendered hog lard

[Slowhand Bob]

GCR, that is redder than my Chestnut and looks close to the Mahogany I use to mix with.  Chuck, I have been using the five gallon buckets of NF oil from Weavers and can tell you that when it starts separating (like bacon grease), it is almost impossible to get it  to emulsify again with agitation alone.   I'm sure that having my shops temperature controls off most of the time does not help.  Not sure of the oils composition but I have actually have started to strain off the thinner top layer and dump the thicker bottom sludge!  No more than I use now, the five gallons would be way overkill in the future.

[bedbugbilly]

Cliff - in regards to using neatsfoot oil . . . . mind you , I'm not saying there is a "right" or "wrong" . . .

I used neatsfoot as well, even as a kid on harness, etc. (many, many years before I got in to making leather goods).  On harness, we'd literally paint it on with a paint brush and let it soak in - it always kept things pliable and nice.

I'm no expert . . . am constantly learning so maybe I can learn someone on this?  I usually cut my holster out, case it, do whatever tooling i'm going to do and then dye it.  I've been using  a lot of the antique saddle tan and medium brown of the water based eco flo like Tandy sells.  I've also used vinegaroon, etc. and am beginning to experiment more with some other natural dyes.  After dyeing, I sew, do my seam/edge burnishing and then wet mold the holster to the revolver.  Normally (depending on the leather) the holster dries and is fairly stiff and rigid.  I like it this way and am always hearing about the need for a rigid holster in order for an easy "draw" and "release" on the pistol. 

What I find using the eco flo water based dye is that it seams to take the "life" out of the leather - for want of a better word.  The olive oil seems to put the needed oils back in yet keep the holster "stiff".

So . . . here's where my learning begins!  It seems like when I've used neatsfoot oil on a holster, it softens it too much.  It seems to loose a lot of the "stiffness".  With the olive oil I seem to end up with nice shades of either the antique saddle tan or a medium brown, the leather comes back to life again and remains rigid.  After it soaks in, I usually put a coat of clear paste wax on and buff it to a nice sheen. 

So I guess my question is what is the trade off between olive oil and neatsfoot oil?  On the CCW holsters I make, I don't want to soften 'em up too much so that they loose the tightness of the wet mold process which seems to facilitate a easy draw for either a revolver or a semi-auto.  On my single action holsters (cap and ball, SAA, etc.) I still want to retain the stiffness for an easy draw.

I know everyone has their own likes, dislikes and preferences but I'm always open to re-thinking how I'm doing things and learning "better ways".  You talk about actually dipping in neatsfoot oil - does this soften the holster too much?  Make it too "pliable"?  Or does it remain stiff enough and retain the wet mold profiles?  Maybe it's time for me to go back and re-think my thoughts on using neatsfoot oil?  In reading threads over the years, I've often read (usually not posted by leather makers) that neatsfoot oil shouldn't be used on a holster as it will remove the stiffness. 

I'm certainly open to any ideas on this and thoughts on it.  I can certainly see the advantages of the neatsfoot oil on leather that is going to see some hard use and exposure to a variety of elements.  I used to use it on a gun sling I had on a rifle and it held up better to the elements than just leaving it untreated or waxed. 

I apologize as I'm not trying to steal this thread - I think all of it is related to getting the right color as the application of oils seems to be a neceassary part of getting the russet color.

Many thanks for your thoughts!

bedbug

[Cliff Fendley]

Bedbug, where do you get your leather and what kind/brand of neatsfoot oil are you using?

One thing I can say about Wickett and Craig leather is I can literally pour the neatsfoot oil to it and it doesn't get soft. Herman Oak does pretty well too and so does Thourobred leather even though it is tanned in Mexico.

I had some bad experience with Tandy and other import leathers years ago and learned real quick your getting what you pay for.

[Slowhand Bob]

If the color shows up right on this, it is what  I call Chestnut. Is this what you refer to as Russet?   Billy check my earlier post on using NF oil on light applications.  Just one thin film on the grain side.

[Trailrider]

Others' experience with neatsfoot oil notwithstanding, unadulterated neatsfoot oil is bad news on leather! Neatsfoot oil is intended to prevent cracking of the hooves of cattle and horses. But those substances are living tissue, which regenerates. Tanned leather, on the other hand, is dead, and neatsfoot oil will sooner or later destroy the fibers of the leather! While Lexol(R) Leather Conditioner contains neatsfoot oil, it has been combined with other chemicals that render it great for leather treatment. I have used Lexol for three decades, and properly applied...DON'T OVERDO IT...it keeps leather from drying out and cracking. Others use Piccard, but I prefer Lexol.

[Skeeter Lewis]

Great thread!
I was intrigued by Chuck's comment about leather-darkening oil. I couldn't find a mention on Weaver's site but elsewhere I came across a product - which I have now ordered - called Hydrophane leather darkening oil. I'll let pards know how it works out....

[bedbugbilly]

Cliff - thanks for your comments.

I've been using Fiebring's Neatsfoot oil when I ue any.

I think that you are very correct on the leather.  I do my leatherwork more as more of a hobby although I do make belts and holsters for friends .  Usually the leather work is what keeps me busy and out of trouble when I'm in AZ for the winter.  Most of the leather that I've "stock piled" - you know how that goes - has been from Tandy and I get it up in Tucson.  Over the past three years, I haven't been real pleased and of course a lot of it is Mexico tanned.  We're late in going out this year but when I get there, I'm going to seriously look at other sources as like you say, "you get what you pay for".  There are a lot of items that I haven't been real thrilled with either such as sewing needles which I've started getting elsewhere.

I've also used the Lexol and still do once in a while but for some reason gravitated to the virgin olive oil.  Probably due to not having enough of it on hand but the wife's cooking virgin olive oil was handy and seemed to work well.  The Lexol did seem to work very well.

I appreciate your comments - it gives me some things to check out and experiment with.  I look forward to trying some leather from other sources and seeing how they compare.   One of the things that I have noticed is the inconsistency in thickness in some of the hides I've gotten.  I got in a jamb and couldn't get up to the store a year ago and needed some leather for a project for a neighbor.  I got on the phone and had them UPS one out - had it the next day and just started laughing when I pulled it out of the box andunrolled it.  It obviously was the bottom hide on the pile that had been picked over time and time again - laid flat, it looked like the rolling hills of whatever as there was no consistency in the thickness whatsoever and was completely unusable - and trust me, I usually can work around such things if need be.  Needless to say, I returned it.