what I'm doing wrong?

[Boothill Bob]

Howdy pards.
I making a gunbelt with woven loops but I dont like the outcome. Have maked 3 belts with woven loops and got the same
results all the time. Look at the photo and I thing you know what I mean.
wonder what I'm doing wrong

[Johnny McCrae]

Howdy Bob,

I'm Not  an authority but I'm wondering if the width of the slots are too narrow for the two thickness's of loop leather? I've had this same problem at times.

[Cliff Fendley]

It might be what Johnny said.

[ChuckBurrows]

As others haver noted that may be it so some parameters are required to help:

1) Type size of bag punch used to punch the slots - some punches are narrower than others - I use a standard Osborne 1" punch for full woven loops - it can be a bit narrow and can cause problems when using 4/5 oz

2) Size./thickness of the leather you used for the loops - I use 3/4 oz which is the most common size used on originals - others use 4/5 oz which can cause problems  

3) When doing full woven loops like these I work the leather flat between each loop before proceeding to the next one..also I make them a bit tight and when all done I final fit to the proper size using dowel sticks of the right size..

[Boothill Bob]

Thanx pards.. I will try what you have said.. I guess that the holes is narrow and the leather is to heavy.

[Cliff Fendley]

I see no need for anything heavier than 3-4 oz for loops. I try to get mine as close to 4 oz as possible. Anything heavier just doesn't seem to work as good and is too heavy to be authentic looking. As Chuck said, any original gun belts I've looked at had loops made of around 3-4 oz leather.

I generally make my money belts and loops from the same material.

[Johnny McCrae]

3) When doing full woven loops like these I work the leather flat between each loop before proceeding to the next one..also I make them a bit tight and when all done I final fit to the proper size using dowel sticks of the right size..

I've learned to do this too and I also add a dab of Barge between the loop and the belt. It seems to lock the loop in place and maintain the proper tightness around the case. Don't know if this is proper or not but it seems to work for me.

I'd also like to add that when I started out doing Leather Work I purchased Chuck Burrow's DVD "Frontier Holsters" about making Western holsters. I'd heartily recommend this DVD. It got me going in the right direction. Thanks again Chuck.

[bedbugbilly]

On the woven cartridge loops Iv'e done - I use 3/4 ounce leather.  I'm using a slot punch (bag punch) from Tandy.  I made a wood jib - much like a small square.  one edge rests along the top of the belt being punched with an overhang that positions the punch the correct distance from the top.  The guide that is hanging down at a right angle to the top of the belt is the correct width to space the slots evenly.  I'm usually doing belts for 38spl/357.  I cut my loop strap a tad bit wider that the slot length - case it and then weave.  I usually rivet one end and then weave until done.  As I weave, I insert a cartridge and pull tight and then do the next loop.  So far, it's worked out well.  I let it dry with the cartridges in and then apply some virgin olive oil to the belt and loops.  That seems to soften the loop just enough so the cartriges slide in and out as they should.  Sometimes the loop may "tilt" to one side but i don't think you can avoid that weaving through a single slot like that.  On the last one I did, I experimented on scrap to get the spacing of the slots just right so when the loops had cartridges in them, they just lightly touched each other.  I like doing it that way as I don't havve the patience to sew the loops.  I usually line my cartridge belt/pistol belt with a lightweight leather after the loops are installed and the ends of the loop strap are riveted on both ends.  On the back side of the belt, the loop material is laying flat between the loop slots - when I use contact cement to apply the liner prior to sewing the outside of the liner to the belt, it holds the back of the loops permanently fixed to the back side of the liner so they won't ever slip.  So far that method has worked fine - I don't store my gun belts with cartridges in the loops.  I think that from what experimenting i've done with weight of loop strap material, the 3/4 weight works just fine and is plenty strong enough.

[Cliff Fendley]

I have found if you have a sewing machine it's a little quicker to sew the loops but I still prefer to weave them.

I think the woven loops are stronger and a full woven loop holds the cartridge out away from the belt a little more which helps in a reload situation.

[ChuckBurrows]

You're welcome Johnny and for those with a history bent full woven loops date back to at least to the 1880's and possibly 1870's - the George Lawrence Co (1857-1985) was one of the first to use them and may have "invented" them.
An advantage often over looked with full woven loops and no liner is that as the loops wear and stretch you can undo one end and re-tighten the loops if need be.

[Freedom]

Howdy pards.
I making a gunbelt with woven loops but I dont like the outcome. Have maked 3 belts with woven loops and got the same
results all the time. Look at the photo and I thing you know what I mean.
wonder what I'm doing wrong

Bob, when I used to weave my loops, I found that I could remove the problem that you are haveing just by foldiing the loop back as it came tight on my cartridge when I was forming the loop. It is hard to explain, but it just takes a little doing, to make things lay flat and to remove all slack from the back before moving onto the next loop. You can do this just by rocking the shell back/forth.

One other thing that I sometimes do on my larger projects is edge the flesh side of the bag punch notch..I use a cantle binding trimmer for this edgeing, an edger or a french edger work well. I don't do this on my thin progects, but on my Quigley Belts the leather is very heavy so it sure helps things to to lay flat...I will even take a groover and run it down the flesh side of these belts at the top and bottom of the bag punch slots and then french edge some thickness from between the grooves on the flesh side.

Before I mastered it, I even used to use a piece of square steel to force the leather flat between the loops because mine looked just like yours. (this steel trick just made things look terrible because of the way it marked up the leather.

You just about have it. But from your picture I can see that the loop was not bent back over the other side before you moved onto the next loops. Lighter loop leather would sure make it easier...but I like 5oz for my loops.

I sew most of all my loops now and tend to prefur the function of the sewn loop more.....I sure made a lot of loops with the weave.

My Quigley Cartridge  Belts are the only thing I weave now..

[Slowhand Bob]

For what its worth I think the overall package of sewn loops is more attractive, particularly when one looks at the back side and lining even tends to magnify the situation.  This can be alleviated totally with a third, inner, layer but how far??  That lift can be tucked by using the cheeeap Tandy plastic bone tool under each loop and laying it down before moving on.  As Chuck says, you can go to a slightly thinner leather but I prefer the 4/5oz on the 40cal+ pistol rounds.  From what I can tell it would seem that the, now discontinued, Rapine molds produced the narrowist slots, followed by most of the forged punches that I have experience with.  Some of the widest slots I get come from the old Craftsman welded handles that Tandy put out back in the 70s, I think, and this might be true of newer one but the more active pros might have a better knowledge of such?  I do much prefer the welded handle slot and strap punches over the forged ones for several reasons. 

[Cliff Fendley]

I'm confused Why must you not be able to see signs of the loops from the back side?

If you look at the back of old original well worn money belts they show the effects of the cartridges even with sewn loops. A money belt built like an original will allow the cartridges to actually sink in and deform the belt body to an extent after a period of time. Heavier loop leather would just make this effect worse.

A couple of my personal money belts that I wear CAS are already showing this effect on the back and personally I like it because they are starting to look even more authentic.

So...on even a lined belt it is MORE historically accurate if you DO see the effects of the cartridge loops from the back.

Regarding the woven loops, I do not care much for a full woven loop as BB is doing on a money belt. I think they are great and do them a lot on regular full weight belts but on a money belt I prefer to sew the loops or do what Chuck refers to as a semi-woven.

[Boothill Bob]

Thanx all.. Will take this with me for the next belt.. How's the semi vowen loops made? Is it up in one slot and down in the outher with or without rivet between?

[rickk]

Bob,

I'm wondering if you simply tried using the belt a while and if maybe it got better all by itself?

Leather is great for that... give it a bit of time and it conforms... problems seem to fade away.

Rick

[ChuckBurrows]

Thanx all.. Will take this with me for the next belt.. How's the semi vowen loops made? Is it up in one slot and down in the outher with or without rivet between?

That's it and an original can be seen in the belts section of Packing Iron...

[Boothill Bob]

Thabx Chuck.. will have a look see

[Slowhand Bob]

Cliff, actually it has been something that I have heard a few shooters complain about.  Course they back away pretty quick when you describe the cost of laminating the belt in such a way as to make all evidence of the weave disappear in the back.  I have never done it but I have seen such belts and their price tags were extremely high.  Many in my neighborhood want a ten hour belt that costs under fifty dollars, oh well, thank God fer visitoring shooters!      

[Cliff Fendley]

It is kind of funny, for a game that is inspired by the old west, the extreme some folks go to in order to not be at all like the way it really was.

And then you've got to love the guys that start telling you all this and that they want because they want a rig just like they wore in the old west. You tell them well that is the way they did it in the movies and start explaining the differences they look at you like your a fool.

[outrider]

Amen to that Cliff