BP in a fire

[PJ Hardtack]

After posting the link to the SAAMI film on another forum (re: burning sporting smokeless ammo), I expressed curiosity about what would happen if the rounds were loaded with BP. And what about a can of BP?

I got a couple of responses. One was from a guy who said that in his experience, the cases ruptured and the powder flared, much as with smokeless. No lead was flying around.
The second response was from a medical Dr. who had the same curiosity. He threw a full, unopened plastic container of BP into a 45 gallon drum burning barrel. He got a 3-4 second "Whoosh!" and lots of smoke. Regrettably, he didn't catch it on video.

He said that the most violent reactions he got were from an 'empty' can of foam insulation and a full canister of lighter butane fuel. That split the seam of the drum.

I'm reluctant to spend $32 on a can of BP, so I hope to influence him to try it with a tin canister.

[PJ Hardtack]

I take it that you've done this?

[Kent Shootwell]

To add to the first hand storys about black powder, a teepee caught fire at a shoot near Grand Island many years ago. Everyone pitched in to pull things out and put the fire out. A can of powder went off when it was stepped on and only the hair was burnt on the fellows leg. Can't say if it was full or not but was sure exciting.
I hear the primer blowing out of a case is more dangerous then the bullet.

[Cliff Fendley]

Ammo in a fire causes a horrendous explosion. I know cause I seen it in the movies

[Delmonico]

Kent, the lightest movable object will move first and the fastest.  A primer or in most cases, (no pun intended) is the lightest. 

Ask those brainless people on that myth buster show. (no need to capitalize)  A 22 lr sends the case out not the bullet.

[Kent Shootwell]

wildman1, I need one of them 45 Colt cartridges for my collection! All I've ever seen is center fire ones.

Delmonico, Yep I have a loose grip on physics.

Cliff, you're dead right and the good guys never get their hair messed up even in a tunnel full of napalm! 

[PJ Hardtack]

I know from personal experience that the safest place to be in the event of a rapid ignition (read explosion) of natural gas is at the epicentre of the incident.
I was gas welding a crimped 60 psi 3/4" steel pipe when the crimpers sheared through. There was an orange fireball and then the fire went out, smothered by the overwhelming amount of gas. Others near the incident felt more heat than I did.

In Hatcher's Notebook, he cooked off and/or electrically ignited several calibres of smokeless ammo, covering the subject round with a thin sheet of cardboard. No part of a cartridge penetrated the paper.

[Trailrider]

Smokeless powder is a progressively-burning propellant. That is, the higher the pressure, the faster it will burn, creating higher pressure when confined. With sufficient confinement, pressures in excess of 80,000 psi can be generated. Such as occurs when a cartridge is fired in a gun.  When NOT confined, the pressure will build only until the bullet is released from the case, after which the pressure will drop to the point where the powder will burn until exhausted. This is why it is SAFER to store smokeless powder in containers that will protect it from heat and fire, BUT THAT WILL ALLOW THE GASES TO ESCAPE INTO A WIDER VOLUME.  I suppose this is why modern cans of smokeless powders are made of plastic.

Black powder, OTOH, IS A LOW EXPLOSIVE!  Although confining the powder WILL produce an explosion, given a large enough quantity...maybe a pound or more...even in the open CAN produce damaging over-pressures. Again, the best thing is to store BP in fire/heat retardent containers, but also not too much in one place.

Ride careful, Pards!

[Gripmaker]

Wildman,  As many others are thinking right now, I dare say your 45 rimfire were actuall 44 rimfire. If that be the case, I wish I had those rounds right now as they would be worth enough to purchase another firearm for my collection. You know what they say, "Too soon old, too late smart."  Oh well, we've all been there.

[sail32]

Hatcher's Notebook, starting on page 519, with details of various ammunition in fires.
American Rifleman 1958, also did an article on burning cartridges using electric fired primers. The main danger was from some small pieces of brass. The bullet went nowhere. Firing a cartridge on a block of soap caused a small indentation, equivalent to a burse.
I think most people get mixed up between munitions' fires; artillery shells etc., and equate cartridges in a fire to a munitions fire.

[Tascosa Joe]

The early .45 Colt cases looked like they were rimfire, but were internally primed centerfire.  I have one that I bought at a gun show 10 yrs or so ago.

[PJ Hardtack]

quote author=sail32

"Hatcher's Notebook, starting on page 519, with details of various ammunition in fires.
American Rifleman 1958, also did an article on burning cartridges using electric fired primers. The main danger was from some small pieces of brass. The bullet went nowhere. Firing a cartridge on a block of soap caused a small indentation, equivalent to a burse.
I think most people get mixed up between munitions' fires; artillery shells etc., and equate cartridges in a fire to a munitions fire."

Problem is - "most people" includes government agencies (police, mines & explosives), fire departments and insurance companies. Not to forget strata councils who would have a fit if a resident was known to be reloading in a suite.

[texcl]

I was shot just above the side of the knee by a primer when I was 13 and it penetrated over an inch through my jeans and all and yes it was caused by my friend and I being dumb asses. But they apparently can be driven to high velocity without powder (no powder in the case when we hit it with a rock).

[Crow Choker]

Tossed approx 75 primers into a fire once that had fallen behind my bench. Don't know how long they had been there, but they were laying behind it during some really humid weather and minor basement wall leaks. Rather than 'rolling the dice" and load them only to have duds, I tossed em in a hole previously dug for burning garbage and retreated. Sounded like a bowl of 'Rice Crispies' as they were consumed and going off, not much of a spectacular event.

My most "young and being stupid" event was taking a 22 longrifle round, laying it on an anvil in my Dad's weld shop, and hitting it with a ballpeen hammer. Never did figure out where the bullet went. I had closed the door in the small building (25x25) and my ears rang all afternoon. Never did that again and no, I didn't tell my Dad how stupid I was!

As far as Black powder, when muzzleloading for deer, I always carried a small plastic bottle of black (around 300 grains) as backup in addition to my premeasured powder and bullet containers. Lost it and didn't find it for three years. It had layed out in the woods where I hunt through three Iowa winters, springs, summers, and falls-rain, snow, heat and cold. After finding it and checking the powder, it looked like it had just been poured from the can. I was temped to give it a try in one of my cap and balls, but thought heck with it and put it in the same hole described above for burning garbage. I placed it in the center of the garbage, lit the pile and retreated to a safe distance. When it went off all it did was 'whoosh' and that was it. Old cans of hair spray and shaving creme have it over that bottle of black. Don't get me painted as foolish, I'm overly safe and not prone to 'devil may care' activities, but when ya have things in hand, ya gotta know what would happen if.......!!!!
Ifin ya wanta read my 'War and Peace' novel about the time I and some college friends made some black powder and its outcome, search and read my first ever post on CAS. All done for fun in a chemistry lab on a nice spring day in Iowa!

[1961MJS]

quote author=sail32

"Hatcher's Notebook, starting on page 519, with details of various ammunition in fires.
American Rifleman 1958, also did an article on burning cartridges using electric fired primers. The main danger was from some small pieces of brass. The bullet went nowhere. Firing a cartridge on a block of soap caused a small indentation, equivalent to a burse.
I think most people get mixed up between munitions' fires; artillery shells etc., and equate cartridges in a fire to a munitions fire."

Problem is - "most people" includes government agencies (police, mines & explosives), fire departments and insurance companies. Not to forget strata councils who would have a fit if a resident was known to be reloading in a suite.

Hi
I haven't talked to the fire department directly, but the news in Wichita KS will occasionally be discussing an over night fire with the words:  "Firefighters went into a defensive mode because there were known to be firearms in the home." 

I always took that to mean that they let your house burn down because you owned guns.  I can see being scared of BP, but not Bullseye and 4350, all those do if burn.

Later

[texcl]

Yeah, smokeless is pretty harmless unless it is detonated just right. Now I responded to a harrier crash once that was loaded with 4 500lb bombs and a bunch of cannon rounds. That was a little disconcerting, I remember the xannon eounds popping off and one landed at my feet. The guy I was standing next to said man I hope those arent he rounds. They ended up just being inert training rounds. Even those big rounds didnt have much power outside of the barrel, just made alot of noise.