Failed paper hulls.

[Dick Dastardly]

Last summer I scored a barrel of paper 16ga hulls.  I thought I was in hog heaven.  Paper hulls make great black powder shotgun shells, right??

So, I loaded some up with my standard load of BP and took them to a monthly match to see how they shot.  The load was  CCI 209M primer, 50 grains of FFg Schuetzen black powder, .125" over powder card wad , 3/8" fiber wad, 1oz fine shot, over shot card and roll crimp.  The shells worked fine and fit fine in both my 16ga 97 and 16ga SxS 311.

At the match I soon learned that paper shells don't make great bp ammo.  I had hulls torn off from the bases and the tube stuck part way up the barrel.  Next stage,  same thing again.  I switched to plastic hull ammo loaded to the same data above and finished the match.  My plastic hulls can be loaded several times before they burn through.  The paper hulls fail.

The photo attached shows the failures.

DD-MDA

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

Live and learn Dick.

I scored a case of Federal paper hulls 15 years ago. I felt like the most period correct cowboy out there because I'm sure our 19th century fore fathers were as frustrated by paper hulls as I was. 

I passed most of that case of hulls on to another pard who insisted on learning life's lessons the hard way.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm thinkn' there had to have been a good reason for all brass shot shell hulls.  My experience could be part if this.

DD-MDA

[litl rooster]

 I bought a hundred or so Fed 12 ga paper hulls a year ago or so. I have not had a FAIL like you are reporting. I did have a couple separate while depriming and sizing though. All the ones I have shot worked like they should have. I found they cycle really nice in an 97 and my '87 both. I will say they are very time consuming though. Especially without all the new fad hydro or steam powered tooling. I like my brass hulls also. Again they are time consuming to load.


I have a several part section on loading both, in my Blog.

[hellgate]

DD,
What brand of hull are you talking about? I've never had a wall seperation. The only failures (other than failure to shuck out of the chamber) that I have had have been pin hole burn throughs and buckling of the wall during crimping. I have lived in fear of WW paper hulls having part of the cupped base wad getting lodged in the barrel as I have seen the upper part of the base wad canted in the fired hulls (partially dislodged).
Are you using once fired hulls? Pinholes generally form at the top of where the brass ends and the paper only part begins. They can weaken there. Your wad/powder/shot loads sounds fine to me.

[hellgate]

I just looked closely at the photo (after posting). Did you glue the over shot wad in those old Remington hulls? If so, the overshot wad adhesive probably soaked into the hull and pulled it down the barrel before the charge blew through. Those hulls truely are brittle "old timers". If no glue was used I suspect the hulls have been reloaded in the past creating incipient pinhole burn through around the top of the brass.

[Bottom Dealin Mike]

I never had one separate either. My beef was the effect humidity has on the hulls. They swell a bit and extraction isn't a case of flick the gun and the empties fly out. I had to pick most fired paper hulls out of the chamber.

So, after a season I went back to plastic.

[hellgate]

In my opinion the paper hulls don't shuck out easily because the paper hull does not rebound (it swells to seal the chamber and stays swollen) and they  (especially Federal & WW paper) have wax imbedded in the paper to repel water. That also can make the chamber sticky when it melts and some sticks onto the chamber.

[Dick Dastardly]

With a roll crimp, no glue is needed or desired.  The hulls were once fired Remington, old but in good shape.  The load is not too strong to my way of thinking.  The hulls failed in my original Winchester 97 16ga.  The chamber and barrel are very shiny.

I'm thinking that the hulls may have simply dried out or deteriorated over time.  They are old.

Since I shoot only Genuine Powder for SASS, I'm considering loading the old hulls with heathen fad smokeyless powder and using them for upland bird hunting.  I'll test them first at the trap club to make sure that they don't fail with smokeyless powder.  I know that black powder does burn hotter.

DD-MDA

[fourfingersofdeath]

With old paper hulls, it could have been the nasties in the primer coming into the equation as well.

I picked up four bags of 100 mixed 12Ga factory paper shotshells recently,thinking I would use them for BP loads in cowboy matches. Now that the rush of blood has passed, haha, I think they would be better employed in hunting and cowboy clays side matches. They cost me $AU60 for 400 and you can't buy any sort of shotshells for anywhere near that cost here in Australia, so I have nothing to lose. I will try them in a club shoot.

They will also be handy for BP reloading in my old Damascus Barrel double, being instantly recognisable.

I have a garbage bin full of once fired Federal low nickel red el cheapo cases to reload BP in. I will probably just throw them away in matches.

[maldito gringo]

Dick, those hulls are older and more used up than I am, and that's say'n sumthin! I'm suprised they didn't fall apart BEFORE you shot em.

[fourfingersofdeath]

Dick, those hulls are older and more used up than I am, and that's say'n sumthin! I'm suprised they didn't fall apart BEFORE you shot em.

[Dick Dastardly]

I think the shells are once fired only.  They are indeed old.  I'm wondering if the paper may have deteriorated over time.  They were stored above a garage in an attic and found there last summer.  The other stuff found with them included lots of fiber and card wads.  I was wrong on my statement of primer choice for reloading.  The old hulls had Remington 57* primers and that's what I used when I reloaded them.

I've reloaded some new once fired Federal paper hulls and never had the problem I saw with the old green Remington paper hulls.  I'm wondering if they may have dried out till they were too fragile?  I'll reload some with a cooler burning powder like 700X and use them for trap and upland game.

DD-MDA

[44caliberkid]

I've used federal paper hulls in my 1882 Remington SxS.  I have to shorten them for a 2.5 inch chamber and i use a roll crimp with an overshot card.  Never had any trouble.  I have a lot of still loaded factory 12 Ga. in paper hulls from the 50's and 60's.  I just ran a box through a 97 that I rebuilt with no trouble.  Haven't had any paper hull problems.

[maldito gringo]

From the condition of the crimp edge I'd say fired more than once, but baking in a humid attic for 40+ years may produce similar results. +1 on the Federal hulls. Some time ago i scored about 300 Alcan 10ga paper hulls unfired, am keeping them safe and
dry for a Winchester 1887 10ga I hope to find one day. Nothing like the smell of burnt paper!

[Fingers McGee]

I've loaded Federal paper hulls w/BP and used them in my '89 Remington, '87 Winchester clone, TTN, and '97.  They work ok in the '97, not as well in the 87, and you gotta pick em out of the two SxSs.  I had gotten around 1000 of them for free from the local Trap & Skeet range, and have managed to give most of them away to others that want to try paper hulls.  I think I may have 100 or so left.  They wont ever get used in a match though.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I never had one separate either. My beef was the effect humidity has on the hulls. They swell a bit and extraction isn't a case of flick the gun and the empties fly out. I had to pick most fired paper hulls out of the chamber.

So, after a season I went back to plastic.

Howdy all!

Dick, you may know already, but what Mike said about the effects of humid-id-ity is the primary reason the US Military switched to all-brass and now brass & plastic hulls.  During the "War to End All Wars" (which was apparently a lie or at least  a terribly mis-spoken descriptive name) the water in the trenches and the general over-abundance of extremely wet conditions caused MANY failures of the paper hulls then in use.  A 12 ga. shell with the paper hull swollen larger than the chamber is no good to a guy in the trenches with a '97!

I load BP in all-brass hulls, but I do have (and have reloaded) some paper hulls.  I forget what brand, but they're NOT Federal.  No separation problems so far, and some are on their 2nd RE-load.

YMMV.

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Pards,

I started the thread because I wanted to make shooters aware that I'd had problems and didn't want them to have the same problems.  I don't consider the failures to be dangerous, but I do find them very inconvenient.  A stopped up 97 really adds to the stage time. . . .

If you are loading paper hulls for PC reasons, just be aware that there are good reasons most factory scattergun ammo is now loaded in plastic.

DD-MDA

[hellgate]

Years ago my dad found a "deal" on some Canadian (CIL) shotshells that were paper but coated with a laquer. Well, the laquer didn't waterproof these duck loads and the loaded shells swelled up like sore thumbs when gotten rained on. The Federal and Winchester hulls that were waxed paper were much more resistant to moisture. Plastic pretty well resolves the moisture problem. I always keep a candle handy to drip wax into the ends of my shells for sealing the shot inside when I get a bad crimp.

[Grapeshot]

Oh well, that's the reason I put so much effort into converting my old Russian Steel Shotgun Hulls into useable hulls for my M1887.