Leather Questions

[August]

SINGLE ACTION SHOOTING SOCIETYTM SASS Range Operations Basic Safety Course

21. Although cross-draw and shoulder holsters are legal, they represent a significant safety concern. No holster may depart from the vertical by more than 30° when worn. Extreme care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross-draw or shoulder holster or returning the firearm to leather. The user must “twist" their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170° safety rule during the process. (NOTE: The 170° safety rule means the muzzle of the firearm must always be straight down range +/- 85° in any direction. If a competitor "comes close" to breaking the 180° safety plane, the 170° safety rule has been violated and the competitor is at fault). Shooters competing in the Gunfighter or "B" Western Category must wear two standard holsters, one on each side of the body. Cross draw, shoulder, or butt forward holsters are not allowed within these two categories. It is also necessary to note that during the course of fire, the shooter must be given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from "straight hang" holsters and the ability to retrieve and return vertically staged double-barreled shotguns without penalty.

As you can see, the term "standard holsters" is elaborated in the sentence following its appearance.  I.E. Cross draw, shoulder, or butt forward holsters are NON-STANDARD.

If you want to spend your life arguing the syntactics of the verbage in SASS manuals, you'd certainly find a lot to keep you occupied.  However, the symantics of "standard holster" seems pretty clear in this paragraph -- at least to me.

You're right, there are no holster limitations in other categories.  I overstated the rule because it appears under gunfighter and is also a part of the Wild Bunch rules.  I got carried away.  You could use butt forward rigs in other categories.  BUT, and it's a really big one, you cannot break the 170 rule when using non-standard holsters.  You do have the latitude to reholster while using a standard, strong side rig -- regardless of your orientation to up-down range.  This is a convention afforded users of standard holsters as long as they keep their barrels pointed down while holstering.

A butt forward rig, which is usually canted as well as being backwards, allows for no margin of error in getting the gun deployed.  If you draw the gun at the angle that it rests in the holster, you've broken the 170 and have a stage DQ for your efforts.  No allowance for deploying or reholstering is extended to the butt forward rig.

So, de facto, you would be hard pressed to actually use a butt forward rig in any category.  At the very least, you would draw the scrutiny of every rule litigator on the posse.  This sort of thing can really ruin a match.

Just say no to non standard holsters.  I suppose they get style points, but the safety and performance issues that attend them makes in a high price to pay for playing Wild Bill Hickock.

[John Smith]

August, you read too much into the handbook, cross draw, and butt forward or cavalry twist draw are legal options.  The operative prohibition is not to break the 170 degree plane.  With the exception of B Western, Classic Cowboy, and Gunfighter, there is no required style of holsters.  I use a strong side straight hang, and a weak hand crossdraw.  I don't have to shuffle or dance when I draw because my body/holster is such that I don't break the 170.  Butt forward on both sides is legal and it's not hard to draw without breaking the 170.  Perhaps the easiest thing to do would be attend some matches and observe the different styles of the shooters.

[Bugscuffle]

John Smith and August Thank you for pointing out the "adendum" to the rules, specifically  the "SASS Range Officers Training Course" and the "SASS Range Officers Training Course". The For the record I was not questioning either John Smith or August. I was referring to "The Shooter's Handbook". You can visit it here: http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/2011ROMaterials/SASSHandbook-17-2011.pdf .

It confounds me that there are a number of rules and regulatrons that are left out of "The Shooters Handbook". But then again there are several things about the SASS organization and especially the management, or rather the lack there of, that both confuse and bother me. Why can't they just put all of the rules in one place?

[John Smith]

It confounds me that there are a number of rules and regulatrons that are left out of "The Shooters Handbook". But then again there are several things about the SASS organization and especially the management, or rather the lack there of, that both confuse and bother me. Why can't they just put all of the rules in one place?
[/quote]

That is one thing we both agree on!

[Bugscuffle]

It confounds me that there are a number of rules and regulatrons that are left out of "The Shooters Handbook". But then again there are several things about the SASS organization and especially the management, or rather the lack there of, that both confuse and bother me. Why can't they just put all of the rules in one place?


That is one thing we both agree on!

Be careful John Smith, ageeing with me is liable to get you into trouble around here.

[Dangerous Cody Waters]

Thanks to everyone for the great information.

Cody

[Camille Eonich]

Red Cent is an excellent source of information on guns and gear.  I did listen to him about my first set of leather and I still have it and use it when I shoot my .45s.  My second set is much the same as the first set but I ordered it with the money belt rather than a tapered belt.  The tapered belt can pinch at times, especially when resetting shotgun targets or picking up brass.

I wish that I had listened to Red better about my choice in guns but I eventually got it right.


Bugscuffle, I agree 100% on the rules.  At the very least they could add something in the shooter's handbook about needing to tread the RO manual.  I got confused a few times before I found out about it.  I also highly recommend that all shooters take both the RO1 and the RO2 class.

[Bugscuffle]

After scrutinizing the handbook with microscopic precision I found a brief reference to the two RO courses. It just said that the two courses offer further explanation of the rules. Well, what do you expect from a California Corporation?

[Red Cent]

Thanks Cammie.

[Lumpy Grits]

BS, their "R" reloads for both rifle and revolver. 
WHY, would you say their isn't......
LG

[Allie Mo]

Hi Cody,

I've had both slides and on-the-belt loops for reloads. Where they are is personal preference.

I think it just looks nicer to have them "built into" the belt's or holster's design. My WBAS rig has them on the holster.

Also, you will need them for rifle and pistol reloads on occasion. Also, folks will eject rifle rounds due to going too fast and not pulling the trigger quick enough or due to a light primer strike or recessed primer... So, you definitely want to plan for that.

About having all the rules in one place, I'd like that too.

Sorry if I brought up a dead thread; but, I'm new here and am just feeling my way around.

Regards,

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo]

Red Cent - If he wants to shoot SASS putting the handle at or below the gunbelt may not work out too well. The rules say that in all classes except B Western, "Some part of the handle must sit above the belt", and in B Western, "No part of the handle can sit above the belt".

Bugscuffle,

That is not what the rules say. BTW, we call them Grips. The following is from the Shooters Handbook.
B Western: "All of the revolver(s) must be carried below the top of the gun belt."
Classic Cowboy: "No Buscadero or drop holster rigs allowed (i.e., part of the grip must be above the belt on which the holster hangs)."

There are no such requirements for the other categories. I've used holsters that sat below the top of the belt in age based and Frontier Cartridge.

Please, if you want to make statements about SASS rules, either quote them correctly (your quote is not in the rules) or look them up. Someone might think you are correct and purchase equipment based on misinformation.

Regards,

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo]

After scrutinizing the handbook with microscopic precision I found a brief reference to the two RO courses. It just said that the two courses offer further explanation of the rules. Well, what do you expect from a California Corporation?

Wow! "Microscopic precision!" Then how was your quote  so far off.

[Lumpy Grits]

Well, when you consider the fact that BS has NEVER shot a match. Consider the source......
Arm chair X-perts are dime a doz.
LG

[Red Cent]

John Smith, I got a question. And that is all that it is. But...

If you stand looking downrange, how can you draw the crossdraw without breaking the 170? Isn't it necessary foryou to twist the body a little bit to draw?

The ROs accept the "Idaho John" reholster but I believe that is because you present the revolver to the holster with the barrel straight down.

Even with the crossdraw under your belly button, the best that could be done would be 90 degress to the line of fire. Imust be missing something.

I see that you are NCOWS. Is there a difference in rules?

[Allie Mo]

Hi Folks,

As my other thread was deleted, I just want to BTT this thread so folks will know where to use that proverbial "grain of salt."

Regards,

Allie Mo

[John Smith]

Red Cent, I usually draw my cross draw pistol first.  When I get to the line, I position myself with my left side down range, since my cross draw holster is ahead of my left hip, which is pointing down range, it isn't hard at all.  There is no SASS requirement to do a "dance" to draw, just not break the 170.  I've seen several straight draw shooters break the 170, by drawing their pistol with the wrist going forward as they draw, and the barrel pointing back behind them.

[John Smith]

Red Cent, sorry I didn't answer the second part of your question.  Yes the NCOWS rules are different in some respects, here's a link to their web page.  http://www.ncows.org/   I shoot in the "working cowboy" class which uses only one pistol and rifle.  I dress just like I would at a SASS match, and my "66 is stock since short strokes etc. aren't allowed.  Also not allowed are my Ruger Bisley Vaqueros.  So I either shoot one of my open tops or my S&W #3.  And yes I draw from a single cross draw holster.

[Red Cent]

That I understand. Yeaaah, I'm from the era that some "old" Ros would require a little soft shoe before you could draw. They really took the "dance " to heart.

Allie Mo, that threw me off. What is with the "grain of salt"?

[Allie Mo]

Hi Red Cent,

I sent you a PM.

Regards,

Allie Mo