Brigade Champion - should we limit it?

[Pitspitr]

Ok,
Here's are my winners:

And same uniform with all my gear unpacked:

(yes the M-1876 mounted boots and the trowel bayonet are documented)

[G.W. Strong]

So how does this work. Can Colonel Pitspitr use any of the items in the display ever again for a uniform competition? If he creates a different uniform can he recycle some elements? Is this limited to first place winners only? Does it only apply to grand and department musters? Can you use it for Grand if it won at a department or vice versa?

Not that I am in the running but I want to know the rules.

[Drydock]

I would suggest limiting it to those 1st place uniforms involved in winning the BC.  Only that uniform should be "retired", all others retaining eligibility.

[US Scout]

I would suggest limiting it to those 1st place uniforms involved in winning the BC.  Only that uniform should be "retired", all others retaining eligibility.

I agree. A Grand Muster first place uniform will be "retired" from future uniform competition.  It may be worn again, just not for competition.

A Division Muster first place uniform can be used for the Grand Muster, but not for another Division Muster.

Major modifications to the uniform so that it is a completely different uniform may be allowed, such as removing all the infantry trim and replacing it with cavalry trim, however the competitor will have to declare that this was done.  Just replacing the rank will not constitute a major change.  

Individual components and accessories of a winning uniform can be reused.  This might include a belt, buckle, sword, watch, gloves,  and other items that were worn by more than one service, corps (branch), or uniform regulations (such as the 1851 belt plate).

We should also remember that competitors competing for BC, should be wearing a uniform complementary to the firearms they are using.  Judges should take this into account so that a really sharp looking Civil War soldier carrying an 1884 trapdoor may have points deducted.  This means that if a competitor wins first place in the uniform competition but does not win BC, they will have to come up with a new uniform in order to compete for BC again.  

[Niederlander]

Gentlemen, I'm going to play "Devil's Advocate" here.  Why are we disallowing using the same uniform if the individual doesn't win the Brigade Championship?  If we're going to do that, wouldn't it also make sense that if someone won first place in Long Range Rifle or the Main Match, but didn't win the BC, that they wouldn't be allowed to use that rifle in competition for the BC again?  It seems to me we should be consistent.  I would like to see a uniform disallowed only if it's won a BC.  Just my two cents worth, and worth every penny!

[Pitspitr]

I would suggest limiting it to those 1st place uniforms involved in winning the BC.  Only that uniform should be "retired", all others retaining eligibility.

I agree.

This means that if a competitor wins first place in the uniform competition but does not win BC, they will have to come up with a new uniform in order to compete for BC again.

Aren't these in conflict with each other?

[Drydock]

General Sir, I fear you misunderstand me.  Only if a uniform takes first place AND is involved in Winning the BC, should it be retired.  If someone wins a BC with a 3rd place uniform due to superior shooting, that uniform would maintain future eligibility.  Conversly if a uniform takes a 1st but is not part of the BC due to poor shooting, it would also maintain eligibilty.  Only if in winning 1st place AND in doing so take the BC, should it be retired. 

IMHO of course!

[US Scout]

General Sir, I fear you misunderstand me.  Only if a uniform takes first place AND is involved in Winning the BC, should it be retired.  If someone wins a BC with a 3rd place uniform due to superior shooting, that uniform would maintain future eligibility.  Conversly if a uniform takes a 1st but is not part of the BC due to poor shooting, it would also maintain eligibilty.  Only if in winning 1st place AND in doing so take the BC, should it be retired. 

IMHO of course!

Didn't misunderstand, just put forward my own opinion, which is all I'm offering at this point. 

As you know, I'm always willing to listen to suggestions and will do my best to select the best course of action.  However, in this particular case, I believe that any first place uniform win should be "retired" from future entry at the same level of Muster.  This is an opinion that I've maintained since our first uniform competition. 

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Pitspitr]

Only if a uniform takes first place AND is involved in Winning the BC, should it be retired.

OK, so playing Devils Advocate here for a minute; right now the concensus seems to be that the BC should be limited to one or two wins, which would make me ineligible for future Brigade Championships. My 1876 US Army infantry Sergeant's field uniform won this fall but didn't win the BC, so what you're saying is, in this case, I could enter my infantry Sgt. uniform every year from now on because I won't ever win another BC with it and conceivably win with it every year thereby making the BC even more difficult for anyone else to win. 

It really seems to me that limiting the number of times a uniform can be entered would be a better solution than limiting the number of times a member can win a BC. At some point Rattlesnake Jack will run out of uniforms. I'm to the point where I might buy another uniform piece or two but I don't see buying another complete uniform anytime soon. If a person wants to spend the time, effort and money neccesary to put together a new uniform every year it seems to me that we should allow them to be recognized for their effort, but they shouldn't be recognized every year for the effort they did once.

[G.W. Strong]

It really seems to me that limiting the number of times a uniform can be entered would be a better solution than limiting the number of times a member can win a BC. At some point Rattlesnake Jack will run out of uniforms. I'm to the point where I might buy another uniform piece or two but I don't see buying another complete uniform anytime soon. If a person wants to spend the time, effort and money neccesary to put together a new uniform every year it seems to me that we should allow them to be recognized for their effort, but they shouldn't be recognized every year for the effort they did once.

To me this makes the most sense I have heard. It works well as long as we clearly define what constitutes a new and different uniform and we somehow track what uniforms people have won with.

[Drydock]

No argument, I can see that.  I always come at it from the shooting side, was thinking if someone had a great uniform he could keep using it until his shooting came up to speed.  I've never had a 1st place uniform myself.      Hard to be in the same outfit with Rattlesnake Jack or Jerry!   

[Pitspitr]

I've never had a 1st place uniform myself.

That's really the point of the Brigade Championship. It goes to the best all around competitor. You don't have to be the best in any ONE area, but you have to be pretty good in all three areas.

[Bow View Haymaker]

I've stayed quiet as I usually am at the bottom of the pack in any competition.  but
I don't think there should be any limits on how often one can win either uniform or shooting or champion.  the winners have worked hard for what they have won and deserve every bit of recognition.
I don't think a winning uniform should not be able to win again either.  If it deserved a win once than it might deserve it again or it might not depending on the presentation and details and the competition. 
every muster is a unique event in itself different locations,  different shooting events, different years, different weather,different competitors.  Those who have one in the past earned those wins with hard work.  Lets not diminish that.  As the musters grow, they are becoming more competitive with better shooting and better uniforms. 
I don't see anybody trying to "game" the competitions,  and don't expect that behavior in GAF.  I would hate to win a uniform just because other competitors chose to where something that won before so now is disqualified.  I would want to be the winner because I had a better uniform,and if I could beat a previous winner that would be even better. 
I can't think of any other place where a  competition's wins are limited. 

[Pitspitr]

So now a question about uniforms. How should we handle uniform sales or loans. What should happen if, say, I was to loan my uniform to my son...or, Rattlesnake Jack sells a uniform to Ned Niederlander? (Dale is the only one I could think of big enough to wear one of Grant's uniforms  ) And how can you track them?

[Dusty Tagalon]

With repeat Uniforms being removed from the equation, I do not see it as an issue. Uniforms need to be part of the equation, for without uniforms, & only shooting score apply s, you have up to a 10 way tie for 1st place.

Brian

[Drydock]

Gotta remember we're factoring long range into the BC scoring as well, it really cuts down on the number of eligibles.  Indeed, Long range scoring was the decisive factor in this years BC.

[Pitspitr]

I always come at it from the shooting side, was thinking if someone had a great uniform he could keep using it until his shooting came up to speed.

I've been thinking about this and have come to the conclusion that if someone knows he's (or she's) in this situation he can just not enter his uniform in the uniform competition until he's shooting well enough to place. After all, by Saturday evenig at the banquet you have an idea how you're doing. By then you've shot the long range so you should know if you placed and you've shot half or more of the skirmish match so you know if you're in the running in it. This year by the end of the day Friday I knew I wasn't going to be the Brigade Champion.

[US Scout]

So now a question about uniforms. How should we handle uniform sales or loans. What should happen if, say, I was to loan my uniform to my son...or, Rattlesnake Jack sells a uniform to Ned Niederlander? (Dale is the only one I could think of big enough to wear one of Grant's uniforms  ) And how can you track them?

To a certain extent, we'll have to rely on the honor system, even with a database to help keep track. It's the uniform that is restricted from competition, and to use it again would constitute cheating. I would have no problem recending the award.

US Scout
GAF, Commanding

[Pitspitr]

To a certain extent, we'll have to rely on the honor system, even with a database to help keep track. It's the uniform that is restricted from competition, and to use it again would constitute cheating. I would have no problem recending the award.

I agree. I know that a few uniforms have changed hands between members and I just wanted to make sure that this was a question that had been addressed.

[Bow View Haymaker]

I'm sorry for my ignorance, but I just don't get it.  I am not a uniform guy.  I have tried to put together enough to not look too out of place when shooting at the musters,  but that is as far as I have been able to go.  Maybe it's a military service thing that I have no experience with.  But why exclude something once it wins a competition?  We don 't exclude the winning rifle, do we.  I don't know of any other costume competition that excludes a winning outfit from competing again.  It takes dedication, and hard work to put together a winner.  The competition is different at every muster.  If a uniform changes hands, I dought that every piece would fit the new owner exactly the same and accessories and gear would most likely be different.  Like I said before,  I don't think GAF members would "game" the system.  If you, keep disqualifying winners, pretty soon the overall standard will go down. Sure some members have closets full of uniforms and can change it up every year.  I think the majority have a bit less, and few have full dress outfits. 
Maybe the champion should be more about the shooting and the uniform thing be kept separate.  Were the best soldiers always the best dressed?  Probably the opposite.  Maybe some other aspect of GAF could be applied to champion. 
I just can't understand imposing a limit to the number   of "wins" a member or his clothing can earn,  Earn being key, because they have to put in the work each and every time.  By limiting "wins" I think your discouraging improvement.

(getting off soap box now)