Calibres of original Colt '72 Open Tops

[PJ Hardtack]

On page 159 of Suydam's "US Cartridges & Their Handguns" is a picture of .38 Colt Open Top. The caption says:

"Colt Model of 1872 Navy Pistol, No. 13752, calibre .38 Colt Navy. 7-1/2" barrel, plain walnut grips, blued barrel, frame and cylinder.
Barrel has unusual two line marking at breech end: "Colt's Pat F.A. Mfg. Co./Hartford Ct USA". Frame has 1871 and 1872 patent dates on left side. Not a conversion, but a cartridge gun made from new and/or modified percussion parts before leaving the factory."

It does have a rebated cylinder and there is no rear sight on the round barrel. The barrel contour and loading gate look identical to my Uberti '71 .38 Spl. gun.  

"Colt - An American Legend" by R.L. Wilson states:

"The myriad of models and sub-types is complicated by what appears to have been the wholesale clearing out of the factory's parts bins. Adaptation was usually rather simple, merely requiring alterations to the hammer, frame, cylinder and barrel; only a few entirely fresh parts such as loading gates and ejector rods.
The realtively high mortality rate of the conversion types adds to the woes of the collector. A substantial percentage of these found their way to secondary markets, mainly Central and South America and Mexico. Certain parts of Europe and Turkey were other favourite dumping grounds for the conversions, basically obsolete."

Looks like a person could make a good case for the validity of a .38 CF '71 Open Top like the current repros.

[Abilene]

Very interesting.  Well with a rebated cylinder and no rear sight on the barrel it hardly sounds like a '71-72 OT, but who knows.  Like they say, Colt didn't waste parts and made some Franken-guns themselves.  I take it the gun pictured has no conversion ring?

[Jake MacReedy]

According to Bruce McDowell in his Colt Conversions book, the original Model 1871-1872 "Open Top" Frontier Revolvers were made in only two calibers: .44 Rimfire (.44 Henry) and a few in .44 Russian.  In his book, on page 283, is a photo of one that was converted to .44 WCF/.44-40 later in its life (it also has a short barrel, 5 3/8", that he speculates may have actually come from the factory that way).

Regards,
Jake

[PJ Hardtack]

Abilene

What could be a conversion ring makes up the whole rebated section of the cylinder.

As for the likelihood of a whole bunch of odd-ball 'Franken-guns" (love that term!) being out there, factory and gunsmith modified, we should never say never. In Suydam's book, there are a couple more pics of two .38 CF conversions done by British gunsmiths on Colt's London-made guns. Neither of them looks anything like what we see on this side of the pond.

When I was applying to have a Tranter classified as 'antique' here in Canada, I was amazed at the variety of Tranter Army .450 revolvers in the data bank, most differing in the manner of ejection. Tranter sold basic guns and frames to jobbers who farmed them out to 'smiths who had to get around patent laws.
In the dozens of pictures that I saw on the data bank, none of them were exactly like mine. Photos were taken to add it to the data bank. I also heard from an author who wanted a clear picture to add to his book on Tranters.

[Graveyard Jack]

Any way you could scan and post the picture?

I ordered Suydam's book from Amazon.

[PJ Hardtack]

Craig

I'll prevail upon my schoolmarm wife. She's more techno-savvy than me. I'm not yet able to post pics on my own and it's about time I got up to speed.

[Coffinmaker]

I've only ever seen original Open Tops built for 44 Henry.  I've never seen one built for anything else.  That isn't to say it didn't happen, Colt prototyped lots of stuff that never made it to production.  The Open Top was conceived to partner the Henry and the 1866 until the Model P and 1873 could be "in market" together.  There were and are really good reasons for a military handgun and rifle to be chambered the same.  At least at that time. 
The military is a staid organization and moving them from "what works" to "what we should do" has, in the past, been nearly impossible.  Single shot rifles against an opponent armed with repeaters??  Can you spell Little Big Horn??  Oh, and by the way, lets leave our Gattling Guns behind.  Sometimes stupid really does hurt.  We also consistently train to fight the last war rather than the war we may have to fight tomorrow.
OK, so much for soap boxes.  The Open Top was a .44 Rim Fire.  I, for one am really happy Uberti built it several calipers popular today.  After all, we're suppose to be having fun in what was originally intended to be a fanticy game of Cowboys ad Indians with real guns, live ammunition and really neat clothes.  Who cares if there weren't .45 Colt rifles, or .38/.45 Open Tops.  It's just a GAME.
Play nice and share toys

Coffinmaker

[Graveyard Jack]

On page 159 of Suydam's "US Cartridges & Their Handguns" is a picture of .38 Colt Open Top. The caption says:

"Colt Model of 1872 Navy Pistol, No. 13752, calibre .38 Colt Navy. 7-1/2" barrel, plain walnut grips, blued barrel, frame and cylinder.
Barrel has unusual two line marking at breech end: "Colt's Pat F.A. Mfg. Co./Hartford Ct USA". Frame has 1871 and 1872 patent dates on left side. Not a conversion, but a cartridge gun made from new and/or modified percussion parts before leaving the factory."

It does have a rebated cylinder and there is no rear sight on the round barrel. The barrel contour and loading gate look identical to my Uberti '71 .38 Spl. gun.  

"Colt - An American Legend" by R.L. Wilson states:

"The myriad of models and sub-types is complicated by what appears to have been the wholesale clearing out of the factory's parts bins. Adaptation was usually rather simple, merely requiring alterations to the hammer, frame, cylinder and barrel; only a few entirely fresh parts such as loading gates and ejector rods.
The realtively high mortality rate of the conversion types adds to the woes of the collector. A substantial percentage of these found their way to secondary markets, mainly Central and South America and Mexico. Certain parts of Europe and Turkey were other favourite dumping grounds for the conversions, basically obsolete."

Looks like a person could make a good case for the validity of a .38 CF '71 Open Top like the current repros.

I got my book this morning and it looks like the sixgun in question is definitely a small frame .36 converted to .38Colt. Which would make it either a Pocket Navy or Police model with the S-lug barrel. There's a few similar guns pictured in Adler's book.

Who cares if there weren't .45 Colt rifles, or .38/.45 Open Tops.

I do! Which is why my Open Top and 1860 Type II are both .44Colt's and my 1873 is a .38-40. I don't see anybody getting in an uproar over the existence of such critters, just stating our preferences and why.   

[PJ Hardtack]

CraigC

I'm looking at the pic of the gun in question right now and I don't think it's a 5 shot Pocket Model with what appears to be a 7-1/2" barrel. The proportions just aren't right. Nor did they have a rebated cylinder. Pocket Models were made with 6" barrels max, so retrofitting one with a 7-1/2" barrel isn't likely.
I think it's what the caption says - a "Colt Model of '72 Navy pistol" conversion.

All the same, I'm looking forward to the arrival of my Navy gripped '71 and '51 Richards-Mason, both in .38 Spl. with 7-1/2" barrels. Both these guns existed historically in .38 Colt, and that's close enough for this Cowboy. 

The fact that we have so many calibre oprions is great. Everybody gets to be happy ..... ;>)

[Graveyard Jack]

I'd bet the farm on it. The proportions are all right for the 6½" barrel. It only looks like a 7½" barrel because it's a small frame gun. Proportions are all wrong for the large frame and definitely not an Open Top. I can tell it's a pocket model just by looking at everything behind the barrel. You can also see the conversion ring in the picture. The .36cal small frame guns did indeed have a rebated cylinder, which is what separates them from the .31's.

[PJ Hardtack]

Hmmm, you could be right .... in the absence of proof to the contrary, I concede.

This from Haven & Belden's book:

"The commonest alterations of this type were the New Model Pocket and Police pistols of .36 calibre to a .38 RF. Usually, in this alteration to short-barreled revolvers, a new barrel with a solid front frame and no rammer was put on. This was also done with the Old Model .31 calibre Pocket pistols, as it lessened the weight and bulk of any pocket-size arm.

In the longer-barreled .36 and .44 calibre models, which were intended for belt and holster wear rather than as pocket arms, a gate hinged at the bottom and held by a spring catch was usually added to the opening for insertion of the cartridges, and an ejector rod was put on the right side of the barrel to shove out the empty shells."

In Wilson's book, there are several colour pictures of both types - with and without ejector system, and a cased short-barreled '49 Pocket Model with percussion and Thuer conversion cylinders, rammer left in place.

[Graveyard Jack]

If you have Adler's book "Metallic Cartridge Conversions", there's a chapter on the small frame Colt's with several pics of pocket Navies and Police models that look just like the one in Suydam's book. They're described as having either a Pocket Navy barrel turned down to round or a new S-lug barrel on the Police model.

I think Suydam's text is a bit misleading, stating that it wasn't a conversion but a purpose-built cartridge gun. I think what he means is that Colt built it as a cartridge gun from a percussion frame, rather than being first built as a percussion gun and then sent back for conversion. Which is why it has a conversion ring, rather than the Open Top's one-piece cartridge frame.

[PJ Hardtack]

Craig - I think you nailed it! One can never have enough reference books.

[Graveyard Jack]

You can say that again! I probably get just as excited over finding a new book as I do buying a new sixgun......almost.

[Paladin UK]

Coffinmaker......

Who cares if there weren't .45 Colt rifles, or .38/.45 Open Tops.  It's just a GAME.
Play nice and share toys

Amen pard!!

Paladin (Whut totally agrees  ) UK

[PJ Hardtack]

Coffinmaker/Paladin UK

Yea, verily, brothers! I think we get way too bent out of shape at times over "mine is bigger, better, more authentic than yours ..", etc. The main thing is that we are out there playing with our toys as we did when we were kids, and the 'bad guys' still aren't shooting back!
If money was no object, a lot of us would be shooting originals or restored originals. In a perfect world, we'd arrive at shoots on horseback and buckboards and not in air conditioned motor homes and trailers pulled by Dodge Ram 3500 diesel trucks.
Holsters would be unlined and loads would be to factory spec.

A late friend of mine shot rebuilt '73 Winchesters and Colts exclusively, relining barrels, fitting new parts, whatever it took. He was shooting Open Top conversions long before they became commercially available as they are now.

We've never had it so good, with the attention of makers catering to our every whim and falling over themselves to offer what the market wants - 100% historically correct or not.

[Coffinmaker]

Yea buddy!!!!  I'd of found someone to manufacture copper rim fire cases and I'd be shooting original Open Tops and an original Henry.  After all, if I had that kind of money, making the ammunition and acquiring shoot able originals would be pocket change.

So I settle for next best and shoot Cowboy 45 Special cases in both Open Tops and rifles and it's pure grins and giggles.

I would still however, be arriving ad departing in Air Conditioned comfort.  The horse and horse and buggy stuff just wouldn't cut it

Coffinmaker

[wildman1]

Yea buddy!!!!  I'd of found someone to manufacture copper rim fire cases and I'd be shooting original Open Tops and an original Henry.  After all, if I had that kind of money, making the ammunition and acquiring shoot able originals would be pocket change.

So I settle for next best and shoot Cowboy 45 Special cases in both Open Tops and rifles and it's pure grins and giggles.

I would still however, be arriving ad departing in Air Conditioned comfort.  The horse and horse and buggy stuff just wouldn't cut it

Coffinmaker

I don't know Coffinmaker, there is just somethin about ridin in a buggy on a cold October mornin behind a hoss that has gas that is very unique.      WM

[Coffinmaker]

Now I gotta wash my IPad 

Coffinmaker

[Fox Creek Kid]

The .38 cal. OT in question was sold at auction a few years back. It was made by Colt as a Naval trials gun to try & win a new contract. They made one that is known of. The U.S. Navy used converted '51 & '61 Navies for years afterwards.