Civilian use of the Trapdoor?

[wyldwylliam]

Greetings Gents and Ladies:

As a green hand around here this may seem a naive question, but after searching around the forums I've not been able to find a definitive answer.

I recently inherited a very nice M'79 trapdoor rifle, and would like to know if the various models of the .45 calibre trapdoors were used by civilians in the West in the '70's and '80's, and if so, how widely and how they would have acquired them.

Thanks kindly.

[St. George]

Any Trapdoor rifles in use at that time would've been military-issue only - no civilian sales - so any found on the loose were stolen.

A civilian may've bought one from a deserter, but if found, was subject to confiscation and/or charges being filed.

Scouts Out!

[wyldwylliam]

Many thanks, St. George. Exactly what I needed to know.

[Trailrider]

Unfortunately, I cannot get at the reference source in my files, but I do know that there was an order promulgated by either the Dept. of Dakota or the Dept. of the Platte, or perhaps from the Division of the Missouri (Sheridan) authorizing the issuance of military small arms to citizens (civilians) if there was hostilities in the area, and it was not possible to assign a military unit to protect the citizens.
In addition, there are several notations where citizen employees of the Quartermaster Dept. (teamsters, packers, scouts, etc.) "lost" arms and ammo, and had the cost deducted from their pay. At least one Trapdoor Springfield and an even 100 rounds of ammunition were lost by one Alex Jardino, a teamster listed on the roster of the Big Horn & Yellowston Expedition of 1876.  As was posted by St. George, weapons sometimes went "French leave" with a deserter, and wound up being sold, quite illegally, but a buffalo hunter, for example, might chance being arrested in possession of a stolen military rifle. Cheaper than losin'yer hair to some Indians, or not being able to bring in a load of hides.

[Delmonico]

Those arms issued in long arms were either Springfield muzzle loaders or the 50-70 trapdoor, the 50-70 trapdoor was very common in civilian hands.

[St. George]

That's true.

Those were obsolete arms, though - and not the latest issue item.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[wyldwylliam]

So reading between the lines, using a '73 would be historically correct if one were doing an impression of an army scout, or stretching it a fair bit, a buffalo hunter going out on the cheap with a "found" gun?

Aside from my own new rifle, I have wondered about this over the years when seeing .45 trapdoors on the line at a CAS or BPCR shoot. Mind you, this has been up here in Canada and I don't know what is considered copasetic in the U.S.

And lastly, when were the first of these rifles sold as surplus?

Great info so far, many thanks.

[St. George]

They were being surplussed out by 1899 or so, but remaining in service with the National Guard after the Spanish-American War and Philippine Insurrection.

By that time, the Krag was the service rifle of the Regulars.

An Army Scout of the era would've had an issued weapon, and would've been an Indian - complete with uniform and rank.

The 'colorful' movie variants were in reality contract employees -  supplied from QM stores, if available, and issued obsolete arms, just like a teamster may've been, if he couldn't supply his own.

There are a couple of threads covering this topic in the 'back pages' - do some digging, and you should find them interesting.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Trailrider]

"An Army Scout of the era would've had an issued weapon, and would've been an Indian - complete with uniform and rank." - St. George.

Not necessarily, Pard. On the Big Horn & Yellowstone Expediition of 1876, Crook's column, there were several scouts, some Indians, but also mixed-blood and whites. Frank Grouard may have been a Sandwich Islander (Hawaiian), or part Sioux. He was issued a Colt's SAA, and also given one by General Crook!  Buffalo Bill Cody was a civilian scout, although his primary long arm was a .50-70 Trapdoor or possibly his own Winchester '66 or '73. Frank and Luther North were in charge of the Pawnee Scouts, and there were others. It depended on the availability of arms at the posts where they were hired. If the unit at the posts had the older arms, then they were issued. If not, then the current issue was handed out.  Teamster Alex Jardino, for example, "lost" a Springfield Carbine, cal. .45 (.45-70/55) plus an even 100 rds of ammo.

The history of the Indian Wars period can get complex and interesting. But you have to really search the records to come up with some of this more obscure information.

[wyldwylliam]

Gracias Compadres, I've done a fair bit of searching on the site, but I shall try some different search parameters. For the last number of years I've been pretty much taken up with the history of the fur trade as well as later civilian doin's so I'm woefully ignorant of military history of the era. So much to learn, so little time.

[JimBob]

The number of stolen guns could have been sizeable in the period.Desertion rates assumed allmost heroic proportions,the peak was in 1871 when it reached 32.6%,8800 out of an enlisted force of aprox. 27,000+.

In looking in Frasca's Vol.2 there is a page in the appendix listing Springfield Arms sold by Schuyler,Hartley,& Graham.A lot of them were shipped to E.C.Meacham including .45-70 models.The first listing in that caliber TD was to Meacham,it's listed as sold Dec.3,1880-120 .45-70 Metcalfe(New).There are two other listings that note the rifles as "New" in 1881 also shipped to E.C.Meacham,one order of 60 on Aug.1,and one for 40 on 8 Aug.

Carlos Gove was also a purchaser-

Mar. 08,1882 20 Allin Rifles -.45 Cf B H Sights New

Shipping data from the book "Arming the West" by Herbert Houze,Schuyler,Hartley,& Graham's arms shipments to the west,1868-1886



You also must take into consideration that state and territorial militias had trapdoors also.Once they entered state owned inventories the Army was no longer in control of them.The governor could issue them out to whom ever he wanted.A case in point was the relief expedition sent to Adobe Walls.It was a civilian endeavor armed by the Governor out of militia stores.

[wyldwylliam]

Thanks kindly, Jimbob, that's some great info there. Makes the TD a real possibility for the 80's at least. I also yesterday someplace on this board found a series of photos from the period and one shows a scout in a studio shot in Colorado holding a trapdoor carbine. I can't now find the post, but the fellow is quite young and appears to be Anglo, in a buckskin shirt etc. If I find the post again I'll reference it here.

[St. George]

Don't put a lot of faith in studio shots - most of what you'll see is a studio prop - with the photographer's subject being from 'back East' on a trip.

Scouts Out!

[Forty Rod]

Civilian use really increased about 1928 when various movie studios bought about two hundred million of them (give or take few dozen) and used them for the nexr 70 years or more in movies requiring anything from French miquelets to WWI legionaire's rifles.  Dressed up for the party they were passed off as nearly everything you could imagine.

[Mogorilla]

In the 80s, huge shipments of them came back to the US from Argentina I think.  I was in a gun shop instead of class, they had 2 big crates of them that had been sold to the Argentinian army.   One box looked like it had never been unpacked.  I should have bought one, but i was worried about beer money.  I really needed to sort out my priorities.

[Trailrider]

I was too young to care (about 3 years old), but I believe the U. of Minnesota was using them for close-order drill in 1945 for their ROTC cadets. IIRC, I read they were sell practically brand new M1884's for $5! 

[Hangtown Frye]

There were indeed Trapdoor Springfield's in use on the frontier by those not otherwise "authorized" to use them.  Not just Indians (who by the way often as not had .50-70's that they used .45-70 ammo in.  Didn't do much for accuracy, but the availability was certainly greater) using captured pieces (Little Bighorn use, both before and after, as well as Apache's).  There were several documented cases of Frontiersmen using Trapdoors during their period of issue, regulations be damned.  Ammo was always available (though purchase from deserters or just thieves on post: Theodore Roosevelt mentions a fellow he knew who had been a scout in the Apache Wars, and bought shells from the Buffalo Soldiers for a dime a piece and sold them to the Apache's for a dollar a piece), and no one can complain about the power.  A good gun will always have a following, be in "authorized" or not. 

Billy Breakenridge noted in "Helldorado" that he bought a 50-70 Trapdoor from a deserter in the late 1860's (when they were issue pieces), and almost had it confiscated by an Army officer.  However, the officer thought better of it and said "You need that rifle out here, so have the barrel cut down to make it 'condemned' and no one will bother you about it again."  Breakenridge had it trimmed and resighted by a local gunsmith, and he said it shot better than ever that way.  Anyway, this would explain why many trapdoors have been shortened at some point in their working lives.

For another "Frontier Character" who was known to carry a Trapdoor, there is always Commodore Perry Owens, who had an Officer's Model.  I haven't found out how he acquired his, but he had a special cartridge belt made for it, which had both .45-70 loops above and .45 Colt loops below.  Since the whole thing was too broad for your average holster to slip over, he had a slot cut into the bottom of the belt and thus pretty much invented the "buscadero" rig of the 1920's, about 40 years early.

Also "Buckshot" Roberts used a Trapdoor at the Sawmill Fight during the Earp-Clanton feud to good effect, even after having been fatally wounded in the stomach.

Plenty of other less fully documented cases are out there, I'm sure.  With the huge numbers of desertions from the Army, where in the deserter walks off with his full kit to sell at this first opportunity, there's little question that they were not an uncommon sight, even if not as common as we'd like to believe.  My research on Colt SAA's with Army markings that were slipped into the civilian market suggests that there were enough of both to be had by anyone who really wanted one.

Cheers,

Gordon

[MJN77]

Also "Buckshot" Roberts used a Trapdoor at the Sawmill Fight during the Earp-Clanton feud to good effect, even after having been fatally wounded in the stomach.

Roberts was a casualty of the Lincoln county war of New Mexico that made Billy the Kid famous, not the "Tombstone" affair.

[wyldwylliam]

Greetings Compadres, just an update on my original question.

I just got hold of a reprint of the 1883 Meacham catalog and they list a whack of Trapdoors available, rifles and carbines, .45's and 50's in various configurations including one with windgauge and buckhorn sights as well as the plain jane military models.

A brand new .45-70 TD cost, wholesale, a whopping ten bucks.

These old catalogs sure are a cool way to get the skinny on what exactly was going on as far as guns and ammo are concerned back in the day.

[JimBob]

Many of the trapdoors you see in those early catalogs were assembled from parts that were condemned and sold as scrap.The commercial sales of fraudulent "Springfield" rifles by merchants such as Meacham,Hartley and Graham,J.P.Lovell and others at one point attracted the attention of the Ordnance Dept. by the mid-1880s.The merchants going so far as to have parts made to manufacture trapdoors when unavailable as surplus and sold as genuine Springfield arms.Springfield Armory took a very dim view of this and began destroying receivers and breech parts so as to be unusable at one point before selling them as scrap.

"Condemned" parts sold as scrap were not necessarily worn out or bad parts.Many were of outdated design or discontinued usage such as parts for the .50-70 rifles and the M1863/64 Rifle Muskets.Sometimes you run into these for sale,.50-70 receivers with early high arch M1873 breechblocks and barrels devoid of normal proof marks are a sign of assembled from parts rifles.Trapdoor shotguns of the M1881 pattern with the ejector stud ground flush assembled from surplus rifle receivers is another one you run into.Model years stamped into breechblocks that were never used on ordnance nomenclature lists.Some of them require a detailed inspection to determine authenticity.

From a letter quoted in Frasca and Hill,The .45-70 Springfield dated May 9th,1885 from Lt.Col.A.R.Buffington CO of Springfield Armory-

"As no genuine Springfield arms are made outside of this Armory and as none made here are sold to civilians except one occasionally by authority of the Chief of Ordnance,the arms referred to must be fraudulent imitations..............."