Leather sewing machine

[Red Cent]

I think I would like to buy one. I have done some research and found some "progressive" machines and I have looked at the Tippman. If you had a top dollar of $1500.00 to buy one (just the machine), is there a clear choice? I won't have high production. I would expect precision capable and able to sew thick leather.

Feel free to guide me to other posts that would apply.

[Slowhand Bob]

I would do a search here on the Tippmann BOSS as it has been a topic on several occasions.  Most here have a very low opinion on it, while mine was a little higher.  I think you will definitely be limited to the used machines and possibly even older used machines when a $1500 max is tallied in, they seem to hold most of their value for a spell.  Hopefully others have better researched the used market than I have and will have more to offer on that.  I will say that even the machines in the TORO 4000 range can run out of capacity pretty quickly when you get into the heavier holster laminations plus add a thick main seam filler.

[Cliff Fendley]

Tippman Boss.

There is a lot of info and opinions floating around the net so do some searching before you decide.

It seems like people either love them or hate them and I've also personally talked to people that own or have owned them and get the same response.

A local knifemaker friend has one and loves it, another friend had one years ago and not sure he had any complaints with it other than being slow and upgraded at some point.

[Red Cent]

I will continue the research. I was under the impression you couldn't do any better than the Tippman for a reliable, strong machine but a little slow. I have read where many have gotten tired of hand sewing. Now that is slow.

Since my production will be in very small quantities, why would I not want a Boss? What are the particular nuances/probpems with the machine. If you watch the video on the Tippman web site, that machine is sewing through multiple layers of leather.

Thanks. Please anyone add their experiences or choices of a machine.

[Camano Ridge]

You will find varied opinions on the Boss. here is mine. I have had a Boss for about a year and a half. I bought it used. It took me a bout two weeks of tinkering to get the tension set so that it would give me an acceptable stitch. Each time I go to stitch an item I run a stitch line on some scrap leather to make sure the tension is still where I want it. When changing thickness of leather you will most likely have to adjust the tension. I have found that some of the people having problems with the Boss just have not put in the time to learn the machine. It will not give you a perfect stitch out of the box. You will have to practice with it till you get it set up to give the stitch you want. I would sugest getting a used tipmann Boss on ebay you can get them for around $1000.00 - $1200.00. On craigslist I have seen them for as low as $500.00. I boght mine on craigslist with some other leather tools for $800.00. The nice thing about the Boss is for some reason they hold their value. If you buy it for $1000.00 - $1100.00 you will most likely be able to turn around and sell it on ebay for $1000.00 or more. It is a hand operated machine and can be finicky at times. It is slower then an electric. This is just my opinipon take it for what it is worth. I think it is a good place to start if you have budget restrictions and have the patients.

[Cliff Fendley]

RC, I think kreimans explained what I had heard most from people. The knifemakers I know may not have any trouble because they sew the same thing all the time.

I possibly would have fits with one because I might be sewing a money belt one minute and 5 layers of 8 oz skirting on a knife sheath next. My Cobra doesn't seem to care if it's 1/8 inch or 3/4 inch thick but I've been told the Tippman has to have the tension changed.

As kreimans said most problems are probably from just not being familiar with the machine or how to adjust it for certain materials.

I've been told the best ones are the older cast iron models but not sure if it really makes a difference or not.

[outrider]

I will make one comment..IT"S A BOAT ANCHOR.  Do yourself a favor and get a used 441 Juki clones.

[Ned Buckshot]

And not even a good anchor at that!

[Red Cent]

Outrider, tell me what you REALLY think about the Tippman.

The Tippman sounds like it is the Lee Loader of leather sewing machines. I might have to redo the budget for a machine that will not take all my time tinkerin' instead of sewin'.

Whoda thunk I would pay more for a sewing machine than a repro Winchester 1873.

[outrider]

Skip stitches...will not maintain stitch length..constant adjustments.  stitch is very uneven to name a few....I kept mine for about three months then went ahead and bought the Ferdco Pro-2000 and have been going full steam ahead for over 6 years.  One of my compadres who has a Tippman is so fed up that he uses it for a hole punch then hand stitches...he also went ahead and purchased a Cobra Class 4 which is also a copy of the Juki 441 and he is going full steam ahead.

The TippmanAerostitch, which basically was an air driven version of the Boss was dropped from production because of all the problems.

I must say that there are several crafters that use the Tippman but for me it;s a piece of c---.

[Slowhand Bob]

Red Cent, I sold my BOSS a year or sew after getting a TORO 4000, another Juki based machine, and have actually regretted it on a few occasions.  It was a good machine for doing demo sewing at on site leather sales.  People like to walk over and watch when you are making something, anything.  Though the BOSS is probably waaaay below any reputable power machine I am aware of, it was waaay ahead  of hand sewing.  I must admit as I learned to use and understand the new TORO machine, I was able to apply much of the adjustment relationship issues I had had with the BOSS and it became easier to use and understand.  But alas, after a year or sew it just sat and used up space in the shop so I let it go for a song.  Do not relate it to the LEE reloaders, though many of its faults can be equated to the LEE machines, it is actually overpriced for what it is and most LEE stuff is what I call low end bargain priced.  If you can not in any way afford better and a lot of your sewing will include lots of ammo loops, long stitching runs such as would be common with lined holster and particularly belts, then I would get one again without a doubt UNLESS, how bout those bright red hand wheel machines I see in the Journal, anyone know anything on those??

 

[Red Cent]

As I said, the budget will have to be increased if I decide to take the plunge. In no way will I make money with the machine. At least, far from a profit. I have my ideas about leather and what I would like to see on some SASS shooters. While I appreciate the period correct holsters, I am competition driven and have competed and talked with a number of excellent shooters. In my era (2000-2007) North Carolina Cowboys were noted for bring home the wood. Many still do.
No brag, just fact but Bob Mernickle offers a holster that is named the Red Cent Palmer. It did not turn out as I specified but what the hey.
I work on cowboy firearms and have lusted for a milling machine and/or a metal lathe. Not taking anything away from the leathercraft, it has occurred to me that I would have more fun and production from the leather sewing machine.
It seems that I run into more flattering references regarding the Cobra Class 4 machine than any other machine. And, no one seems to love everything about the Tippman.
A lot of the posts also refer to the Singer machines. A little curious about these.

[outrider]

Red Cent,

Just so you are aware of it  the Artisan 4000, the Ferdco Pro-2000 and the Cobra Class 4, and the Cowboy are basically all the same machine  they are all copies of the Juki 441.  The reason you hear more comments about the Cobra is that it is quite a bit cheaper than the Ferdco...but a good machine and you can't beat the service that you get from Steve.   Now the Cadillac of course is the Durkoff-Adler.

[Red Cent]

Really appreciate the helpful information folks. I have printed the post and have it for quick referral.

[Cliff Fendley]

I talked to the friend that has a Boss today at a show and he said he did have fits at first and said the big issue is tension adjustment and admits it does require some tinkering at times. He said the main issue is keeping the tension right.

The Adler probably is the top of the line machine but that said my friend and mentor knifemaker Gil Hibben has an Adler. Honestly I can see some things that are of nicer quality than the Cobra but running the machines and the end result is the same. Of the Juki Clones I'd say it's hard to go wrong with the Cobra. I'm happy with mine and Steve's service is top notch.

On the Tippman Aerostitch, Gil used to have a Boss and upgraded to the Aerostitch. He actually prefers his Tippman Aerostitch over the Adler. Personally I don't think the Tippman stitch looks as well as the Juki clones make but I will have to admit that Aerostitch will go through anything without a hickup. I have seen some really thick hard leather projects that the Adler and Cobra have some issues with that the Aerostitch slams through like going through hot butter. I think the dang thing would sew two truck talegates together if you could come up with a strong enough needle.

[Trailrider]

I've been using a Juki TSC441 for about...um...thirty-odd years now. Tough, reliable and not prone to get out of adjustment easily. Mine is fitted with a large flywheel and a syncronous motor that allows me to sew one stitch at a time, if necessary. Reverse lever allows easy backstitching. More expensive than $1,500? It was when I bought it. Probably even more now. But well worth it.

[Slowhand Bob]

Cliff, I have an Aero, and yes it actually does have a powerful down stroke but that comes at a cost.  At some point the pneumatic punch being served up will cause something to give and Tippmann put in a plastic(?) part to break before anything other than the needle can.  Also that power translates into a lot of noise, think jack-hammer.  I have actually been thinking about unpacking mine to see if it could be used on the extra thick main seam fillers that are giving me such a fit right now.  The last Aero model did have a 'half stitch' at a time switch that I liked and it might be just the ticket for what I need now!  Isnt Cobra claiming to have a special feed now, on some of their models, that is supposed to retrace stitches precisely?  

At one time Dusty Johnson of Pleasant Valley Saddle Shop was a user/dealer of the Tippmann line but something(??) happened  and he dropped his support totally.  One of my problems is with the price issue, the BOSS is now well over half the cost of many Juki clones and the Aerostitch would probably cost more than the electric machines to reproduce again.  The cast iron machines were pretty solid.




PS:  I actually planned to sell this one a couple of years back and just never would list it on Ebay.  At any rate this is what the old Aero looked like.  Notice the trimmers hanging on the side, magnets are your friend and will keep small tools/needles/lights/etc handy when placed on the machine.

[Cliff Fendley]

 Isnt Cobra claiming to have a special feed now, on some of their models, that is supposed to retrace stitches precisely?  

I don't know if there is any special claim but mine will. I can stop back up an entire holster or sheath through the same holes if I want. I figured all machines would though.

For what it's worth Gil's Aerostitch and Adler will retrace their stitches too.

I think what he likes about the Aerostitch is he can run it up into a tight place and bump one stitch at a time real easy without it taking off again. I just run up close and turn the Cobra by hand to get to the precise point I want to stop and turn.

Probably all in what your used to I guess. Obviously some people like the Tippman's but all the bad I heard kept me from considering one. I figured if there was ever a junky one made I would wind up with it.

[Red Cent]

Kind of mind boggling to see some of these prices.  And the more I research, I find few devotees of the Tippman and many devotees of the clones of the Juki. There are quite a few positive references made about the "Cowboy" nmachines, more specifically The Cowboy 3500. Good marketing ploy, I guess. As I understand it, the Cowboy is also a copy of the Juki.

[w.b. masterson]

How would a Durkoff-Adler 767 work?