Leather sewing machine

[outrider]

We all have our likes and dislikes as far as machines are concerned...there are several that like and use the Boss.  I have had very bad experinces with the Boss and prefer the Ferdco Pro-2000, which I have been using for over 6 years without any problems.  I have no experience with the Luberto so I can't comment on it, nor do I have any experience with a needle/awl machine..except from waht I have gathered by comments of others they are hard to keep in sync and I don't believe they are made anymore so parts would be a problem...It is my opinion that unles you are planning on opening a full production facility the needle feed machines ( Ferdco Pro-2000, the Artisan 4000, Juki 441, and the Cobra Class 4, as well as others) would work fine for you. All of these are all knock offs of the Juki 441.  In the initial comment John Bianchi was mentioned....he used a Ferdco Juki Pro-2000 and now is one of the supporters of the Cobra Class 4.  But also used the needle/awl machines thoughout the years...so for him to support both the Ferdco and the Cobra these machines must be worth using.  It is my understanding that at one time the Ferdco had a better stitch than the needle/awl machines  but that could have been just advertisement  

I have two friends that still have the Boss machines..one is trying to sell his and the other (TN Mongo) relegated his to a hole puncher when he purchases a Cobra Class 4

Now that Ferdco has closed it's doors I can still get parts from Juki or even Artisan and of course Steve at Cobra

If you feel that you want to spend the high dollars on a machine like a needle/awl have at it...but be prepared to spend some high dollars on parts should you need them....

[Massive]

Thanks Cliff!

Now with all due respect to that poster and not trying to start a fight, am I to forget about the comments.?

That would probably be best, he made a single post, and for now is gone.  Obviously something about his purchase was not up to his standards, but I can't tell what from his posting.  The different sizes thing, but where is that an issue with gunleather.  I guess I may be hand sewing over that part.  The main thing for me with machines is hammering out the double layer perimeter stitching.  Welds I do by hand, because I can, and I think the stitch is arguable stronger, though that is a complex issue.  But most welts are flat anyway.

If one of the Asian outfits could bring us a needle awl machine outfitted for holster work, with modern electronics and supported by say Steve.  I bet there would be some interest...  And when you think about the stuff they still have there, like giant metal shapers, that have been "obsolete" here for decades, they may actually have something that could be modified like that.

Actually, toyimg with the thought of starting with a Luberto and adding a Cobra 4 later if all works out . The extra thousand or so to purchase the myriad of handtools needed sounds practical.

What is the luberto good for?  It is a Pearson type machine.  People say it is the best stitch out there, and I guess it is slow, but what is the upside for holster work, when there are Cobra, and Cowboy machines that are actually outfitted for holster work, and that are used by the pros.  I'd buy a Luberto, because I like machines.  And they show up on occasion at crazy cheap prices, so one might get lucky, but what will they do?

[Cliff Fendley]

Steve said he calls the Cobra class 4 the "Dream Machine" because John Bianchi called it that when he first ran it.

[Slowhand Bob]

WOW, watching that head knife cutting technique brought back some mighty painful memories!  Last time I asked the guy who purchased my old three digit BOSS, he was still happy with it.  I have offered to sell the Aero to him on several occasions but, as he says, the BOSS actually goes as fast as he would run a power stitcher anyway??  

[Red Cent]

It seems as if the stars will line up the latter part of December. Not related to Christmas but it is a good time as any to order the Cobra 4 machine.
I am asking you folks for a favor. I need a list of the basic hand tools. And a recommendation for reading material. I have a Kindle but I want hard copy.
Do I wear the beanie for a year or do I present a finished product?

[Cliff Fendley]

Does Steve have a big wait time on the Cobra 4 right now?

[Red Cent]

uhhhh, I'll go see.

[Slowhand Bob]

Can someone take a moment to explain something to this old Ga redneck?  Does a needle + awl machine run both off the same shaft stroke?  If so, is there always an awl hole left at every 90deg turn and/or backstitch? 

[outrider]

I am not sure but from watching some videos it appears that the awl comes from the opposite direction from the needle....the hole is punched with the awl on the upstroke and the needle sews on the down stroke...again just my observations

[Red Cent]

Sent an e-mail last evening. waiting for answer. Bummer (hope not)

[Cliff Fendley]

Slowhand, the awl comes down on a bar from the top like the needle on modern machines. The needle is on a needle bar underneath that follows the awl back up and through the hole the awl makes. The needle has a hook that grabs the top thread and brings it down allowing a shuttle to go through the loop made in the top thread as it's pulled down. The shuttle has the bobbin inside it thus makes the lockstitch when the top thread is pulled back up. The shuttle slides back and forth via a rail on the needle tree. Kinda reminds me of a high speed subway train the way it looks and works.

When making a turn you stop on the stitch where you want to turn. Similar to how you would on a modern needle feed.

So the answer is no, it does not make an extra hole.

They are a very intriguing design, it's amazing how everything has to be timed just right for it all to work but will do it all a lightning speed.

[Red Cent]

"This machine is literally, the ONLY one of its kind. The machine was contracted out to the Ferdco Corporation, of Harrison, Idaho, specifically to join together Insulation Panels for NASA's Space Orbiters"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FERDCO-3-MATERIAL-CAPACITY-AEROSPACE-SEWING-MACHINE-PRO-4000-for-LEATHER-etc-/300444792531?pt=BI_Sewing_Machines&hash=item45f3e7b6d3

[Red Cent]

Cliff, Steve said 7 to 10 days.

[Cliff Fendley]

Wow, I guess he is either getting more shipments in or finally getting caught up with his orders. In the past guys have been waiting months to get them. I think I got mine close to two years ago and it was 3 or 4 months wait.

If you get one from him I don't think you will be disappointed. I haven't heard anything bad and Steve's service is top notch.

[Freedom]

I had a BOSS and used it with much success for a couple years. It sure beat hand sewing and since mine was given to me FREE to use, I could not complain. Mine was one of the old cast iron ones....Now they are cast aluminum...Well after a while the Boss began to self-destruct...It was VERY expensive to fix and all the replacement parts that they sent me to fix my machine was cast aluminum...the parts that I had broken were all iron, so I knew it would not hold up. I got rid of it.

A few of the things that I truly hated about it (even when it was working well) were....

It will really trash your leather with it's stompper action.
It's hand operation only allows you to use one hand to control your leather.
It has a very small throat...so you can't turn your work.
It fell apart

I have a Hook&Awl machine and it is a true locomotive!! But because of the hook, it will not backstitch...Perfect for its intended use as a harness making machine...but not good for much else.

I bought a Artison 3200 and it was pretty cheap as far as machines go (around $2200 new)...but it is GREAT..it sews so easy, I wish I could afford a better machine , but the Artison has treated me right for quite a while. It is the same machine that Steve sells...just not painted brown.
If I had it to do over again I think I would have gotten a little bigger throat...this one is a little tough to do bulky items like chaps..but it still works well enough.

[outrider]

Nice looking machine.  The throat depth is exactly why I didn't buy the Adler 205 when I was in the market.  The Ferdco had a 16" throat versus the Adler's 12".  You should be happy with that choice

[Red Cent]

For education and conversation, someone please explain  the problem.

http://www.leatherpros.net/forums/showthread.php?1142-Sewing-Thick-Leather

[Cliff Fendley]

I wish I had seen that thread a long time ago because I thought I was the only fool to have this problem. I had the exact same problem (and still do actually) that they speak of in that thread. It sewed the test piece perfectly but when I get to my knife sheaths that have up to five layers it want's to grab and lift the leather.

The reason the guy had it skip stitches is because it lifted the work piece and didn't create a loop in the thread for the shuttle to make the lockstitch. I have noticed if mine lifts the work to stop and make sure it did not skip before continuing.

I called Steve on this and he had suggested casing the leather before sewing but that would cause marks from the foot so I'm not going for that. Besides my point was if my friend Gil Hibbens Areostitch sews the same leather then the Juki style ones should do what they claim also. I believe Gils Adler 205 has done the same thing and is one reason he uses the Tippman because almost all his knife sheaths are 5 layers in at least part of the sheath.

My experience is the reason it sewed the test pieces so well is because they are not glued. When you glue all those layers is when it makes it harder for the needle to slide through the work.

My solution when sewing real thick stuff is to crank the presser foot tension way down and go slow and I also run S style needles when seem to help. I notice when sewing Wicket and Craig skirting leather the needle want's to squeak and sometimes grab worse.

When I'm sewing a knife sheath that tapers to that real thick area for the belt loop I go extra slow and even push down a little to make sure the material doesn't lift when the needle comes up.

One other problem I noticed in thick hard material is it would fray the thread and do it worse with the thread I got from Steve. The thread I get from Weaver is much better, seems to be bonded better. The colored threads are better yet, I suppose the dye helps bond it even more.

I would like to hear others advice on this too because I've had to fumble my way through the problem.

[Red Cent]

Whats with the oil and lube stuff? Seems like a lot of problems with stains.

[Slowhand Bob]

Guys go back to Reds link and pay particular attention to what Joel has to say, all are a part of the problem but the taper hint is, I think, the biggest part of the story.  When talking about the taper that causes the most problem, it seems to be the taper out into the pouch rather than the taper of varying thickness (taper) used in the fillers.  I can layer leather up to  pretty close to max foot rise and sew BUT a slightly less thick main seam will cause major problems.  If I set the Aero up one more time before advertising it I will check it out on a thick mainseam.

Red, my experience with the lube pots actually seemed to aggravate the problem of skipped stitches.  I find that small oil stains tend to disappear, perhaps dissipate is a better term, by the time the holster is finished??  Must be a YMMV type situation?  Though I have not tried it yet, the idea of trying the lube pot as a thread dye pot has interested me.  I do have an idea (experimental) on improving the thick main seams  stitching problems that I will pursue after the first of the year.  Something I recently saw on Youtube that turned a light on.