carrying your fodder

[wyldwylliam]

Howdy Boys.

New around here and to Henrys in general, had my iron frame for about six months, love it so much I haven't had my front stuffers out even once since I got it.

I'm doing as much reading online and in books as I can find, but have yet to find any discussion about how civilians back in the day might have carried their ammunition.

Given that this fine rifle came out at a time when most every hunter was still using muzzleloaders, I kinda figure most fellows would have gone with what they were used to or had on hand, and used the same sort of shooting pouch they carried their loose ammunition in. From what I gather cartridge belts or bandoliers didn't come in until up in the seventies.

Also, I haven't run across any documentation that indicates that civilian buyers of the Henry had access to the Kittridge belt box the Army used.

So, as I'm into authenticity as much as is practical, I would like to ask if what I'm thinking about bullet pouches makes sense, as well as any other input any of you veteran Henry shooters might have.

Thanks kindly.

[major]

The thing to remember about Henry ammo pouches is that the original Henry cartridge was rim fire.  And because of this it wasn't safe to just put a bunch of cartridges in a pouch where they would bounce around and collide into each other.  The use of wood blocks that had holes drilled into them is very prevalent when it comes to Henry ammo pouches.
I suspect that most found out that loose cartridges were a bad idea by experience.  I have never heard of any cartridge box ignitions but I suspect that there were some.
The modern center fire cartridge doesn't have this problem.  When I make blanks for my 44-40 Henry out of .44 Mag. brass I just use a Civil War .69 caliber cartridge box to carry them. 
These guns are a hoot to use for reenacting as well as for live firing.

[wyldwylliam]

Thanks a lot Major, that is a really prescient bit of info. I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense, as modern .22 rimfire ammo uses what is a lot stronger, brass rather than copper, case.

Do you happen to know if the Army used that system? I've never seen a picture of the inside of a Kittredge box, I just sort of assumed the rounds would be rattling around loose in there. I wonder if there was a block of wood or some other method used inside there?

[matt45]

It's a little outside your exact RFI, but the soldiers issued the Spencer carbines had a cartridge box/ w a block that held X amount (I can't remember the exact amount).  I would expect that veterans would have adapted something similiar for the Henry and civilians would have followed suit.

[major]

Wyldwylliam
Here is an artist conception of the Henry box.  I don't know if one was ever used in the war but here is a picture of it.  I think that the artist didn't get it completely correct because if you look at the picture there isn't any way to carry the box.  It would be too heavy when loaded to go on a belt and the artist didn't show any kind of shoulder strap attachments.  I think that it would be absolutely necessary for this box to have a shoulder strap because of the weight.

[wyldwylliam]

Really great stuff from both of you guys, many thanks. I'm well on my way now to figuring what and how I will make a pouch for my carts, probably will go for a shoulder job similar to the one shown.

I see in the diagram that the artist notes that the bottom of the box was left open to admit empty blocks. Do you think it was completely open with only the straps to hold them in there, or might there have been vestigial flaps as well?

I also am wondering about the three rows of rivets he shows on the sides. What might those have been for do you think?

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Didn't they use the Blakley pouch ? and didn't it have tubes to hold the ammo Just pull out a tube and filler up .

[major]

Rowdy
You are thinking of the Spencer box that had the tubs in it.  As far as I know only Spencer shooters used the blakslee box and even that box was rare during the Civil War.

Wyldwylliam
The Henry box had four wooden blocks that held the copper cartridges.  When one block was empty it was removed from the top of the box and inserted into the bottom of the box and held in with a couple of springs on each end of the box.  The other blocks were then pushed up to the top.  The rivets on the side of the box held the springs onto the box.

[wyldwylliam]

Thanks a mil, Major, it's all making sense now.

As to the civie street way of carrying, sure wish I could run across some documentary evidence about what the common method(s) entailed. I'm still leaning towards the usual shoulder-carried bullet pouch of the day, perhaps with the cardboard box the carts came in put in as a unit, or perhaps just dumped in en mass. I wonder how many shooters back in the sixties even twigged on the possible dangers of carrying rimfire ammo loose.

There are so many questions about the minutiae of how things were done in history that just weren't ever written down. I've run into that problem so many times over the years, it can sure be frustrating. But at least with CW stuff, there is so much evidence still around as well as documented at the time.

[Trailrider]

Given the high cost of the Henry and the fact that by the end of the Civil War around 10,000 rifles had been actually produced, and most were probably purchased by soldiers during the War, it is probable that various cartridge boxes were readily available, either issued for other arms, or battlefield pickups. Even flopping around loose in a pouch or pocket posed the potential for an accidental explosion, rimfire rounds are harder to set off than you would think. In addition, ammo packed in the original cardboard boxes were relatively safe. But for those who picked up or otherwise acquired a military cartridge pouch, they could either utilize the wooden blocks from whatever cartridges, such as Spencer blocks, or when time and resources permitted, making new blocks. After the war, those with Henry's or those who could afford a new Henry probably made use of whatever surplus pouches were available.

Therefore, I don't think you'd be inauthentic to go with a military pouch of some kind. Keep in mind that, aside from the Henry box pictured, most  would hold twenty rounds or so.  Much more than that would probably be carried in the original cardboard boxes in a haversack or saddlebags. For that matter, a twenty+ round box isn't that big. A couple could probably be tucked in the pockets of chaps or a slicker.

Hope this helps.

[wyldwylliam]

Thanks for the insights, TR.

I've just been having another look thru Les Quick's book as well as thru online sources, and apparently total production figures for the original Henry was around 13,000 units. Also, apparently, total numbers either issued or bought by soldiers during the war was around 7000, which means that during the war years nearly half of production was bought by civilians.

I think what you say about the use of surplus military ammunition pouches after the war makes good sense, and was probably wide-spread.

But still, during the war those 7000 civilian shooters probably used stuff they had on hand or bought and I continue to suspect that mostly that meant the type of leather shoulder bag which is today commonly incorrectly called a "possibles bag" but which was called a shooting or bullet pouch back in the day. Throw in all the '66's sold and used until cartridge belts became common in the seventies, and that means that a heck of a lot of Henry ammunition was being carried somehow.

However, going into one's own head is a dangerous neighborhood and I would sure like to find documentary evidence, as "gut feelings" are notoriously misleading when talking about how things were done back in the day.

In Quick's book I also read that even among collectors there is still "controversy" as to how cartridges were carried by soldiers during the war. Interestingly too, he says that the Kittredge box was simply fabric covered inside and the rounds just banged around loose in there.

Also, just as a last little fyi, any and all factory boxes of ammunition I've seen pictures of, and there were many manufacturers, were 100 or 50 round affairs.

[Coffinmaker]

Well ...... Hello, would ya gimmie a box of them 44s.   Probably heard that thousands of times in the time period we choose for our game.  As far as toting that box of 44s, a military surplus cartridge pouch, a bag of loose rounds or a manufactures box wrapped in oil cloth and stuffed Ina saddle bag would all be equally correct.  It was more of a "run wat ya brung" rather than a standardized accessory.  Really, the copper rim fire rounds weren't really that big of a hazard unless the owner threw the bag in a corer (not real likely).
So.
Run what ya brung.

Coffinmaker

[Trailrider]

Good point, Coffinmaker! Not sure of the quality control on .44 Henry Flat rimfire, but recall that the Henry and the Improved Henry (M1866) had a dual firing pin striker, so the opposite sides of each rim would be struck to insure ignition, as there was apparently NOT a complete assurance that the fulminate of mercury priming compound was evenly distributed around the rim. I've carried .22rf ammo loose in a cloth bag and never had any go off.  Not saying it's impossible to set off some loose-carried rimfire rounds in a bag, but I'd bet against it being a problem. And even if it was, I doubt the word got around very quickly in those days. Folks didn't log onto the telegraph the way we do on the 'net.    (Look at how many documented instances of folks leaving the hammer of Colt's SAA's down on a live round, with bad results through at leas 1876 and into the '80's:  Wyatt Earp shot a hole in his coat in (IIRC) Dodge City. John Finerty, the "Fightin' Irish Pencil Pusher" (correspondent for the Chicago Times) had an AD due to the stirrup hitting the hammer of his pistol on the Big Horn and Yellowstone Expedition. Likewise, a soldier on that expedition was chopping wood and somehow had an AD that killed him! Yet the practice of keeping the hammer on an empty chamber doesn't appear to have been widely practiced until a bit later. Communications just weren't that good.

[wyldwylliam]

Yep, for the time being anyhow, think I'll just continue to use a small shoulder bag i got a while back from Track that has a very nice 1860's aesthetic about it, as opposed to the older styles I have that are more appropriate for the fur trade days.  I'm thinking that this whole thing is probably just one of those things were definitive answers just aren't out there. However, if anybody ever makes a repro of the Kittredge belt box, I'll be at the front of the line. I'm actually a bit surprised that Uberti hasn't come up with one before now.

[Trailrider]

Wyldwylliam
Here is an artist conception of the Henry box.  I don't know if one was ever used in the war but here is a picture of it.  I think that the artist didn't get it completely correct because if you look at the picture there isn't any way to carry the box.  It would be too heavy when loaded to go on a belt and the artist didn't show any kind of shoulder strap attachments.  I think that it would be absolutely necessary for this box to have a shoulder strap because of the weight.

I would expect that the two straps riveted to the back of the pouch, which pass under the bottom and fasten over two finials on the front of the box would be used to slip onto the belt. The weight of the pouch would hold it to the outside of the belt, trapping the straps between the back of the belt and the wearer's body.

Unfortunately, I have seen no mention or photos of the pouch in any of the references on CW/IW accoutrements. In order to make one, one would need some dimensions on the drawing.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Good point, Coffinmaker! Not sure of the quality control on .44 Henry Flat rimfire, but recall that the Henry and the Improved Henry (M1866) had a dual firing pin striker, so the opposite sides of each rim would be struck to insure ignition, as there was apparently NOT a complete assurance that the fulminate of mercury priming compound was evenly distributed around the rim...

The system used to distribute the fulminate of mercury in the rims was a centrifuge. It was an idea used by a chemist whose shop was next door to S&W. He went into the ammo business as with the war on there was big money to be made. I believe it was Mr. Crittenden of the soon to be Crittenden & Tibbals ammo co.

As for reliability, I do know from the Marcot book that the Military made a huge recall in the late 1860's of a lot of Spencer ammo by a vendor that was having a lot of duds. I would imagine that was Hell on morale in hostile country. 

[Injun Ryder]

From a past post:

Civil War Henry cartridge box:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,16249.0.html

[Slowhand Bob]

Guys, I am going to go at this from a different perspective and one that we would never want to use as a recreation model using that old ammunition.  If we could take a time machine back to the immediate post CW era and actually find those military surplus Henry users, we would find what little ammunition they were able to travel with was either in a pocket, where available, or in a small pouch or bag.  Common sense knowledge in those days would not have gotten around nearly as quickly as it does today.  Let someone have a Henry accident today and by tomorrow it will be known in the most common places, world wide, that modern Henry shooters find their information,  but not so a hunnert and fifty years ago.  It took years for that information to be collected by historians.  By the time the story of old Buck Hatfields Henry rimfire balls a going off in his pocket reached fokes down in the flatlands, well old Buck was long under ground.  When we think of this as the great westward migration era, well those stories of how unsafe this habit could be had  never even arrived, except in the occasional instance when you became the story!  Some years back I was reading some supposed collection of data concerning reported deaths from firearms during the expansion years and the number one cause of death was claimed to be caused by pulling long guns primarily shotguns, out of resting places by the muzzle, such as dragging it out of the wagon bed.  Apparently, common sense was not necessarily more prevalent then than now, we are just better informed and get the chance to learn safety habits from others experience!

[buckskin billy]

From a past post:

Civil War Henry cartridge box:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,16249.0.html

injun ryder thanks for that old link. im gonna be making me one of these. what are the bullet loops on your reproduction made from?

[wyldwylliam]

IR, thanks for that, looks great, I may build me one of those too.

Slowhand, what you say makes a lot of sense. I was recently reading in an old Meacham's or Winchester catalog where the blurb on the new '73 (I think it was) allowed as how the rifle was, with the new trigger safety, perfectly safe to pull out of a case or boat or whatever, by the muzzle!!!!

One hardly knows what to say.