Longrange 44wcf Developement: Part 1

[Gripmaker]

Thanks to W44wcf, I am now a much more educated person concerning the 44wcf cartridge. Thank you Sir! After reading many of his posts and those of others corresponding to his postings, I have begun my own testing to develope a BP load/lube combo that will work in my Uberti 66 Winchester clone. It has been extremely accurate since the day I got it, albeit within 100 yards.

The first problem that needed to be solved concerned the ladder sight I had used to replace the normal buckhorn that came with the gun.  At what distance was each bullet/load sighted in at each mark on the ladder?

I started with some suggested loads from posts on this site:
                                                              215 gr NOE 432 sized to 429
                                                              23 gr. 777                     NOTE: powder measurements are by weight, not volume.
                                                              35 gr. WANO 2F
                                                              36 gr SWISS

I then set up a sand-filled box iin which to shoot because I had to do the testing in my back yard with a distance of only 35 yds available.  Utilizing certain techniques and ballistic charts learned under an E-7's  tuteledge, I was able to determine not only the sight in range for each mark but also hold-over/under at 50 yd intervals and bullet drift with varying wind velocities for each load. Quite an interesting  undertaking to say the least.

Loads were fired into the target using the different marks on the ladder and then the points of impact were recorded, placed into the ballistics chart and then extrapolated to determine sight-in distance. With that info you can then determine impact point at 50 yd. intervals.  With differing wind velocities and directions, one can determine wind drift at said intervals. The ballistic tables used have proven to be quite accurate with other rifle and handgun  calibers so I am eager to get to an official range to test them with the 44wcf.

I must note here that all three loads of five shots each impacted the target as one ragged hole of about Quarter size so I felt confident in continuing with the ballistic table in use.  Hoping to get to a local range soon to get this finished.

[KirkD]

Excellent work. Keep us posted on your range results.

[w44wcf]

gripmaker,
I really enjoyed learning the history of this vintage Winchester cartridge ......... the first centerfire chambered in a repeating rifle. Thankfully there were / are still some historic references to be had and cartridge collectors / dealers that had vintage ammo available.   

Thank you for running these tests. We all look forward to learning from your results.

w44wcf

[Gripmaker]

Got in some impromptu shooting at 50yds Saturday and was impressed by the results.  Triple 7 load came in with 1 1/2", WANO at 1 3/8 and SWISS at 1 5/16".  All used NOE 432/215 bullets sized to 429, Winchester brass and CCI LP primers.  The lube was a homegrown concoction that includes RCBS Riffle lube, a bit of some white smokeless rifle lube (don't know where that came from as I did not keep box), a bit of old beeswax toilet ring and some Bore Butter thrown in to add fragrance (and loosen things up a bit). Loads were as noted in original post.  I also shot some smokeless loads that will suffice for hunting out to about 200 yds which included RL-7 at about 1400 fps and Alliant 2400 clocking 1250, both with Lee two groove bullets.  Had some Pyrodex loads also but couldn't find them on my bench when I wanted to shoot so left them out.  I shot 10 rnds of each BP/sub load starting with 777, then WANO and ending with SWISS. Was amazed at accuracy of WANO and SWISS after the 777 but kept checking barrel and found no lead or powder build-up and did not clean barrel until after the session was over. 777 left a dark ,heavy fouling. WANO cleaned that right up and left a slight amount of fouling. The SWISS is absolutely the cleanest shooting BP I have ever encountered. After all the others and 10 rnds of SWISS, the barrel had a SLIGHT HAZE over the rifling which could be seen with the aid of a bore light.  SWISS is absolutely the cleanest burning BP I have ever encountered.

I now need to check these out at 100 and 200 yds for an upcoming GAF National Muster in a couple of weeks but I believe they will get the job done. Krags, Martinis, Springfield and Mausers beware...there is a 66 ringer headed your way. It helps when the others don't spend nearly as much time practicing as I do.

Know your gun...know your target and practice, practice, practice.

[Gripmaker]

ADDENDUM TO ABOVE POST:

I forgot to mention that the SWISS grouping measured an honest 1/2" untill I got excited after checking out 3 shots and opened the groupt to that 1 5/16" with the last two shots. Maybe I should have stopped at three.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Gripmaker
The Swiss black powder is amazing .Clean , accurate , easy to clean up . The velocities are Great .  Now there is a rumor floating around that Goex plans on having a powder to compete with Swiss . And it is promised to hit the market in January .

[Gripmaker]

Rowdy,  I guess I'll have to contact Mike Daly at Hodgden to check on that.  From the little testing I have done so far, WANO's powder made for and sold by GRAF & Sons seems to give almost identical results as SWISS except in the cleanliness area.  My loads shot as well as the SWISS but where SWISS left just a haze (I could still see shiney rifling through it), the WANO left a film ( but very very thin) of fouling so would probably lose accuracy quicker. Unfortunately things are getting busier and Florida is beckoning so will have to FIND the time to finish testing.

[w44wcf]

gripmaker.
Thank you for the recent update.  I have found that Goex works well for many shots with the Accurate 43-215C, NOE 432 or DD "Big Lube" and the moist burning Swiss is kind of wasted with the larger lube grooved bullets since, as you have indicated, and I have experienced,  it does not group any better on average.   Where Swiss and only Swiss shines is with the 427098 (Accurate 43-210B).

Based on my testing at longer ranges .....out to 300 meters (327 yards) here is the way I would rank the bullets / powder accuracy wise:
1. 427098 / Swiss
2. 43-215C / Goex (almost as good as #1)
3. NOE 432 / Goex
4. "Big Lube" / Goex

I have only worked with KIK and Schuetzen at 100 yards with the single larger lube grooved bullets and they seemed to group as well as Goex so I would think that downrange performance would be = to Goex .

The reason, for the most part that the 1. & 2. have been the the most accurate in my testing, I believe, is the more slender nose profile and small meplat (nose).

w44wcf

[58cal]

Thanks for the research. I am starting to shoot an original Winchester 1892 44-40.
I have successfully reloaded my Uberti Henry 44-40(1.5 to 2 in groups)

I use hardball lead. Lyman cowboy mold sized to 429.... 29 gr Goex 3f. Federal  LP primers. No filler, SPG

Would an original like the hardness of this lead?

In your long range tests you use Swiss and Goex ...are they both 3F?

Thanks in advance

Mike Arthur N-SSA
843 412-1982
Charleston, SC

[w44wcf]

58cal,
Welcome to the forum.  I use mostly 2F Swiss & Goex.  I have tried 3F but find that groups run a bit larger in my experience. Perhaps with your lighter 29 gr charge it will work as good as 2F.

I have used alloy's running anywhere from 8 to 16 bhn and they all worked fine.

w44wcf

[58cal]

Thanks for the info. I use starline brass and seems
like i only enough room for the 29 gr 3f Goex.

I guess that's because I'm using a 240 gr bullet. If I
go to one of the accurate brand or other Approx 200 gr
bullet I will have more room. Would you then recommend i go up
to 35 gr goex for best accuracy at 100-200 yards?  Do you use filler?

Thanks in advance

Mike Arthur, N-SSA
843 412-1992
Charleston , SC

[w44wcf]

Mike,
Using R-P brass, and 35/Goex FFG with the 427098 (Accurate 43-210B) or Accurate 43-215C (seating depths of .37") the compression is .17" on a settled powder charge.

I first settle the powder by pouring it slowly (4-5 seconds) through the funnel, holding the powder pan from about 4-5" above the funnel.

I haven't used Starline brass for b.p. but using the same components as above in a test round, the compression is a bit more at .21".

Early factory 44-40 cartridges that I have dissected had .20"-.24" of compression on the 40 gr. charge depending on the powder and cartridge brand.  Of course, those cases were the balloon head style which held a few more grs. of powder.  Also the density of the powder could differ a bit depending on the mfg. and lot #.

Swiss is more dense than Goex and using the same 35 gr charge weight the compression was .08" as compared to the .17 of Goex in the R-P case.

Charges are by weight in grs.

I don't use a filler unless I want to use the 26 gr. load of the original Henry cartridge in the 44-40 case. THen I use PSB (Polyethylene Shot Buffer) as a filler.

Regarding long range accuracy, I haven't used less than the 35.0 / Goex FFG with the 43-215C at 200 yards so I can't say for sure how accuracy would be affected with a lesser charge.  I'm thinking that it should not be affected much as long as there is an adequate amount of compression on the powder (Goex) of 1/8" +.  Swiss works well with less compression.

How much compression are you getting using the 240 gr bullet with the 29.0/Goex 3F combination?
Seating depth of the 240 gr bullet?

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

Mike,
Check this thread.  Some interesting information regarding 30 grs of Goex along with 28 and 32 grs with the 43-215 from a fellow N-SSA member. (My handle there is w30wcf)
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?145625-accurate-mold-43-215c

w44wcf

[58cal]

Hey W44wcf.

Interesting info of yours and the cast boolits site.

So I'm going to order a 43 215c. Which type of the three metals do you recommend?
Depending on the type: brass etc  what tempearture do you
Heat thr lead to?

I also noticed in the castboolits site, you used spg. I have that set up.
Do you still recommend it with the ff goex?

I have never measured the compression with my
29 gr 3f. The load was given to me and it always
fit with a little crunching. The oal with the 240 gr cowboy, 29 gr fff goex
and the starline brass worked out to 1.585 to 1.595 depending on how
hard(deeply) I crimped the cartridge. Harder equals longer case

Ps the difference of say 1.58 to 1.595 never seemed
to affect the point of aim or the accuracy.

Weird?

Thanks again.

Mike
843 413-1992

[w44wcf]

Mike,
The very best choice would be the iron blocks but they are, understandably, a lot more $$.  I have Accurate molds in aluminum and brass.  Based on my experience with them, I would have a hard time choosing between them. Between the two, if one likes a heavier mold then go with brass, if not, aluminum.

With the w.w.+2% alloy I am using, I find that 820F is pretty ideal. 

There are a couple of variations of the parent 43-215C.....the 43-205C & 43-210G.  The only differences are the length of the noses.  In a 44-40 case that is 1.30" long, the cartridge oal's would be:
43-215C ..... 1.58"
43-210G ..... 1.565"
43-205C ..... 1.54"

Since your rifle will feed cartridges that are 1.595" long the parent 43-215C will work fine.  The other bullets were likely developed for rifles that needed shorter length cartridges to feed reliably in their rifles.

What is the length of the 240 gr bullet that you are using?

w44wcf

[58cal]

Good morning w44wcf

The mold is a Lyman 429667.
(I use hardball lead: 16 hardness)
Bullet length: 0.715
Starline brass length: 1.295
Federal LP primers
SPG
29 gr fff Goex

OAL cartridge: mostly 1.583-1.588

However, this setup is for my Uberti Henry and shoots great.

The load I'm working up now is for an original Winchester
Model 1892 in 44-40. Left the factory in 1893.

I'm taking delivery of the gun this week so I don't know yet what length
cartridge will feed properly.

The rifling difference plus a correct OAL seem to be my differences?
By the way, do you like SPG for my new setup with the
Accurate mold?

Yours,

Mike

[w44wcf]

Mike,
Original factory 44 WCF headstamped ammunition that I have average 1.59" in o.a.l. So that length should feed aok in your vintage '92 but it would be good to double check it (Nice rifle!!).

The base nose dimension of .42" of the 43-215C was designed to ride the top of the lands so there would be no interference in all 44-40's when chambering.  Some bullets have a full groove diameter forward of the case mouth which could provide some interference in some 44-40's.

Based on your dimensions, your 240 gr bullet has a seating depth of .42". The 43-215C has a seating depth of .38" so there is room for another grain or 2 of b.p. using your current loading procedure.

I use SPG mostly since I have one lubrisizer containing it.  DD's Pearl lube worked pretty much as well (I pan lubed those.) as I would expect any lube that is not as tacky as NASA which does work very well with the typical 2 lube grooved bullet (427098) but does not, in my experience with the single larger lube grooved bullets.  

I am sending you a pm.

w44wcf