Loading C&B Revolvers

[davemyrick]

I didn't want to hijack the thread on making felt wads but while watching it, I was struck with a question I cannot answer. Why is it, that we today feel the need to reinvent the wheel when loading these iconic weapons? From the time they were introduced and long after they were no longer actively manufactured, ammunition makers supplied ready to load "cartridges" for these firearms in 5 or 6 round packets both with and without caps. The cartridges were not metal cased internally primed like we think of today, rather they were linen, paper or skin tapered cases containing the powder charge sealed with a lubed ball or conical bullet. To load, the cartridge was placed into the chamber, the cylinder rotated under the rammer and then seated. The action of seating the cartridge, ruptured the powder case exposing the powder to the flame from the cap when fired. The case also served as an insulating layer and aided in sealing the open end of the chamber from any flame.
I have used these cartridges for years with success with both conical and round ball for live firing as well as when reenacting.
Like I said it is just something I don't understand, so what does everyone else think?
Dave Myrick

[Cuts Crooked]

<snip> Why is it, that we today feel the need to reinvent the wheel when loading these iconic weapons? <snip>
I have used these cartridges for years with success with both conical and round ball for live firing as well as when reenacting.
Like I said it is just something I don't understand, so what does everyone else think?
Dave Myrick

OOOOOKAY.........I'm missing something here.......What exactly is it you don't understand? Is it why people don't use preloaded cartridges? No manufacture currently makes preloaded cartridges, and a lot of pards don't want to/know how to make them.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I did a cut'n paste from one of my posts from a year ago.  Mongoose was on The Open Range for about a week, but he did describe how he packed powder & ball for his pocket police. I adapted it as follows;

"There are several sources of info on making paper revolver cartridges.  The classic is by "TIMUCHIN" on 'thehighroad".  One that is easier to access is on our sister forum "theopenrange"

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=326.0

I have made cartridges using Timuchins instructions, but you have to register to access the photos.  The last time I tried them it was a drizzly winter day here on the WET coast.  After one cylinder full I tried to reload and they started to collapse and spill stuff all over.  If you go to the link above, "mongoose" posted a tip on using .38 Special cases to hold the powder with the ball stuffed on top with finger pressure.  In use, thumb off the ball and hold it in a pinch while you pour the powder in the chamber.  Insert your wonderwad, or proceed to place the ball on top of the powder and ram. Lube on top if no wad. (I use a Lypsil tube refilled with borebutter.)  A capper will be the slickest way to cap when all chambers are loaded.

I found that .357 cases hold my .36 load of 23 gr. without packing.  .44 Rem Mag cases work for .44 Cap'nball ammo

5 or 6 of these loads can be wrapped in aluminum foil, and two packs fit in a cap pouch very conveniently. I carry my reserve ammo in a .44/.45 plastic cartridge box."

Cartridges are fiddly to make, but packing pre-measured powder loads in commonly available pistol cases with a ball jammed on top is a convenient option.

[Pettifogger]

This comes up about once a month.  Mostly brought up by new C&B shooters.  Bottom line is almost everyone that shoots C&B seriously has made and used some.  They quickly discover the time and effort simply aren't worth it.  Hours of labor at home to save seconds on the firing line simply isn't time and cost effective.

[hellgate]

He may be referring to the lube wad usage too. What is new is the using of guns that were intended to be shot 6 times and then go to either a second loaded gun or pull a fighting knife or sword. We now us these guns for sustained firing in cowboy action matches where they are loaded and shot 5 or 6 times in a row which was never the  expected use. In order to keep the guns from fouling up we now make lube wads and some use paper cartridges, etc to speed up the process. I used to make & use paper cartridges but mine were not as reliable as I needed and were tedious to make. I haven't made a paper cartridge in about 25 years.

[davemyrick]

I am not a new C&B shooter, I've been shooting them for more than 20 years.
Properly made cartridges with properly lubed bullets also eliminate the need for any sort of wadding much less felt ones.
To me it simply makes better sense to load them in the manner they were intended to be loaded, with cartridges. The Army saw fit to issue each Cavalry trooper 4 packets as the standard ammunition load and they were required to be able to reload their revolvers at any gait they were travelling at. Pouring powder from a flask into an open chamber on a moving horse isn't going to happen with much success. However, use a cartridge and it it easily done, although the higher gaits do require some practice with the caps.
So I'm taking from the responses so far is that either A) folks don't know how to make them or B) they simply opt out for the convenience at the range instead of preparation time at home.

Dave

[Pettifogger]

Gee, don't know the last time I was riding a horse during a match.  Uh, let me think.  Never!     We ain't in the Cavalry and the Civil War is over.  During matches paper cartridges provide no real benefit that makes up for the tedium of making them.  If i were a re-enactor I would still be making them.  I'm a competitive C&B shooter and loose power and ball can be loaded very quickly when you have your loading routine down pat.  (I've been shooting C&B since 1961.  That's when the Civil War Centennial started.  I made cartridges back then.  Quit about 1963.)

[Drydock]

You're on the ground, loading the weapon at a table.  Combustible cartridges are not worth the trouble in this particular circumstance. Nor do they carry enough lube to sustain the weapon thru 5 or 6 scenarios without cleaning.  (25 to 30 rounds per revolver).  Thus loose powder loading and extra lube in wads for some.

Me now, I like to dip my .36 round balls in melted beeswax lube.  Then drop them into a cigarette paper tube with a twist at one end.  Pour in 20 grains of powder, then twist the other end.   Bite off the powder end twist, shove into chamber, seat and cap. BUt I play a different game when I do this.  (see The American Plainsman Society forum)

[Professor Marvel]

So I'm taking from the responses so far is that either
A) folks don't know how to make them or
B) they simply opt out for the convenience at the range instead of preparation time at home.
Dave

Ah My Good Dave -
Welcome ....

I would submit that In fact neither is the case;

rather, most of us are very familiar with them and the topic has been discussed at great length in numerous threads here, thus the somewhat laconic response to a topic already covered extensively  by the hivernaughts.


if one uses the CAS City "advanced" search engine for "paper cartridge" one finds a plethora of threads, surpassing 4 pages in total. One of the iconic and most referenced threads is the one by Sgt John Chapman wherein he details not only the manufacture and use of said paper cartridges (specifically for the Colt 1860) but in addition he makes hysterically correct "pullstring" catridges boxes!

You will also find threads addressing the manufacture of paper cartridges for the Rifled Musket and the Sharps Percussion breachloader.

ahhhh in fact (I had to go look) this is covered under the "Dark Arts"  "Child Board" here as a permanent sticky.
(of course, permanent is in the eyes of the beholder .... )

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,9695.0.html

ie: to summarize verbosly , (and thus waste more elctronic ink)   those who care to, already do it , those who would rather not "don't" and in these dogs days of August the general populace doesn't seem inclined much to discuss it  further...
 

hope this help
yhs
prof marvel

[Drydock]

Ah, Perfesser, yer a marvel! 

[litl rooster]

when I grow up I want to be just like the good proffessor

[Pulp]

Like most of the other respondents I too have made and used paper cartridges.  In the process I learned it's much quicker (for me anyway) to load loose powder.  I would always manage to get the dang paper cartridges crossways, or they wouldn't fit, or the powder wouldn't pour out or something.

Plus, I like to use 30 grain loads in my '60.  You can't get that much in paper cartridges and still  have them at a managelble length.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

when I grow up I want to be just like the good proffessor

Growing old is compulsory;

Growing up is optional!

[Paladin UK]

SC says....
   

Growing up is optional!

T`aint never gonna happen with ole  PUK

Paladin (what still believes in ) UK

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Another truism!


The difference between men and boys

.....................is the price of their toys


maybe that is why I am still VERY YOUNG

[Professor Marvel]

Do not attempt to adjust your computer. We have taken control.
We control the horizontal...
We control the vertical ....

Ah, Perfesser, yer a marvel! 

when I grow up I want to be just like the good proffessor

My Good Netizens, you cause my head to swell with even more air hot air!

For any of the netizens of CAS City who care to partake of his insane ramblings  celestial soliloquies and prestidigitation, Prof Marvel will be taking his travelling medicine show and  apothacry pushcart on the road again for his 98th annual Farewell Tour beginning Octember 34th, coming to a village near no-one!

On his Last annual Farewell Tour Prof Marvel was so well recieved by the Officials of the Belleview, NY Home for the Terminally Bewildered that they incarcerated him for his own safety  held him over for 5 years of consecutive daily command performances! You know the Chicken at Kresges? It was worse! Thank you , I'm here all week.

Growing old is compulsory;
Growing up is optional!

I wish to emulate Sir Charles!
except for the part where he flies to the cold northern regions of Canadia for legal reasons and runs out of food.

yhs
prof marvel

we now return you to your Paper Cartridge Thread.

[wildman1]

At least we know who's in the WOOHOO chair.  WM

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

recently The Perfesser said; 

"I wish to emulate Sir Charles!
except for the part where he flies to the cold northern regions of Canadia for legal reasons and runs out of food.

yhs
prof marvel"

It turned out that I never had to eat my mocassins!  More of an anoyance than a hardship.

[Crow Choker]

To me, part of the fun and enjoyment in shooting cap an ball revolvers 'IS' loading loose powder, ball, and cappin! I know it's seems to be a pain in thee ol' bottom, but it's all part of the enjoyment. If anyone wants to take the time to 'roll' paper cartridges and gets fun out of it, go for it and enjoy. Tried it once and figured it to time consuming for what the final result was. Like paintin a barn with a 1/2" paint brush. If I want to shoot black powder without the hassle of 'rollin my own', I'll drag out my Open Top or Richards II and  fire 44 Colt rds that I took the time consuming chore of castin the bullet and loadin the whole round in a single stage press!!!! Anyway, for you paper rollers, go for it if you enjoy doin so--good shootin to ya!!! Yers, Crow Choker

[hammer1]

SC says....
   
T`aint never gonna happen with ole  PUK

Paladin (what still believes in ) UK

What do you mean Paladin? Are you insinuating there isnt a Santa Claus??!!