Webley's

[Tascosa Joe]

I am hoping PJ Hardtack or Rattlesnake Jack will give me a quick tutorial on Webley's.  I think RSJ had posted a bunch of info on the NCOWS sight last year.  The Cabela's close to my house bought a collection of 900 guns.  They have a half dozen Webley's priced from $299-$999 all are .455's.  I know there is a MK III, IV, VI.  What are the differences and which ones are not NCOWS legal? Thanks,

T-Joe

[PJ Hardtack]

Tascosa Joe

I'm flattered, but I will gladly defer to Grant (aka Rattlesnake Jack) for his knowledge and expertise on Webleys. But - be warned!
You may well receive more info than you bargained for. He does nothing by half measures. He imparts a lot of information when he warms to the topic.

My one and only Webley is a nice MK VI made in 1922, so even thought a military gun, it's got a somewhat better finish. My other .455s are a Tranter Army in pristine condition and a commercial Colt New Service in the same condition.

By all means, get into that collection and equip yourself with the best gun you can afford that suits your needs.

[Tascosa Joe]

They also have a Colt New Service in .455 NIB.  Only problem is they want a lot of money.  The New Service has a Colt Letter it was shipped to Ontario.  I cant remember the year I think 1925 in a shipment of 50 guns.  I drooled over that one.

[St. George]

Any MkIV or earlier is consistent with the time frame.

MkIV's and MkV's came about later, though the MkV looks like the MkIV, with the distinctive bird's head grip.

The only drawback to the big New Service is that it's 'big' - I recently had a Canadian-issued one in excellent condition in .455, but let it go because of the grip size.

For the way my hand's built - the big Triple-Lock S&W is a much more natural fit.

They want a lot of money because they can get a lot of money, so long as the cylinders are un-cut for .45ACP and half-moon clips, like so many were that came to these shores during the pre-1968 time frame.

A cut cylinder devalues the piece for a collector, and they were so modified for commercial sales by such importers as Walter Craig, and Sam Cummings and a whole host of others, to take advantage of then-mountainous piles of war-surplus American .45ACP.

I own a couple of un-cut MkVI's - a true Webley built in 1916 and an RSAF Enfield Webley from 1922, and they're fun shooters in .455 - with a gentle recoil when fired as God intended - one-handed.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[PJ Hardtack]

St. George

I've got the smallest paw of anyone I know next to my wife. In order to shoot my New Service I had to install a Pachmayr grip adapter. Colt wasn't thinking when they came up with that grip shape.

Oddly, the RCMP issued .45 Colt NS revolvers to the eastern Divisions and the .455 out west. Had something to do with the timing of purchase orders, I believe.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

(This is my third attempt at posting this ... if it coes not work out this time, I will admit defeat).

I am the proud owner of a Wobley ... a .455 with the cylinder cut down to allow 'moon' clips and .45 ACP ammo. I no longer shoot it because:

The shop that let me trade in my .45 ACP cartridges in as a partial payment on new ammo refused me.  It seemed  that when the brass was fired in a .455, that it expanded just enough keep it from fitting into an M1911A without resizing firs ... has anyone had this problem?

Secondly, the strength of shooting .45 ACPs in the old Wobley began to show ... the action would 'freeze after 25 shots  ... then 15, etc. SO ... I bought 50 Auto Rim shells, and plan to load them with cowboy loads ...(something more like the old .455 Eley ...).

Any thoughts?

[Niederlander]

The .45 Auto Rim works great in those Webley's.  I used AR brass (loaded light) all the time when I still had a Webley, and couldn't have been happier with the performance.  The cases would bulge more than in a .45 ACP chamber, as yours seems to do. 

[St. George]

A lot of the 'gunsmithing' on those Webleys was of the 'backroom' variety, and the results show.

The .45 Auto Rim does work - but whenever I run out of the British-issued stuff I was lucky enough to acquire - I'll buy the new Fiocchi .455 Webley and be happy.

As to the resizing of fired brass - that's why I have Carbide dies.

I'm a big guy - but try though I might, I never could get my fingers to lengthen by an extra joint - and that was what it was going to take, before I found the New Service to be comfortable.

Single-action fire was quite accurate, but double-action proved to change my grip perceptibly enough to make me 'think' about the shot, instead of instinctively fire it, and I never needed the distraction.

The big S&W, on the other hand - shot both ways like a dream.

Differences in folks, I guess.

Scouts Out!

[RattlesnakeJack]

Ned, et al.

With respect to the British War Department military-issue Webley revolvers, we worded the specific GAF provision so that any version up to and including the Mark V is considered acceptable as a GAF main match gun.  The Mark IV (adopted in 1899) is just within the "Victorian" timeframe ..... although most revolvers of that model were produced in the 20th Century.  However, without having reference to the markings, the Mark V (1913) is virtually indistinguishable from a Mark II, Mark III or Mark IV - the primary differences related to relatively minor modifications, upgrades in steel quality and, finally, a slight thickening of the cylinder walls to better handle smokeless loads - and thus the outward appearance and basic functioning changed very little.  Accordingly, on my recommendation the Mark V is deemed acceptable as well.  The only military-issue .455 Webley model not "legal" for main match use in GAF (but OK for Era of Expansion shooting) is the Mark VI, adopted in 1915.  It is significantly different in appearance from the five earlier versions, so couldn't really be included with the Mark V.

Here is an image comparing a Mark I (1887, note the rounded hump on the upper gripframe - only the Mark I had that), Mark II (1895), and Mark III (1897) -



To illustrate what I mean about the Mark V being pretty much the same as the MKII through IV revolvers, this is my own Mark V revolver, which saw service in Australia:



The inset in the above image shows the markings on the frame ahead of the cylinder -  Q/|\G on the left side (denoting Queensland Government ownership) and Q/|\P on the right side (Queensland Police).

All of these earlier models had a birdshead grip shape and a 4" barrels as standard, whereas the Mark VI had a more "modern looking" flared grip configuration, a noticeably different front sight profile and a 6" barrel as standard -



The above summary relates only to military-issue Webley revolvers - i.e. supplied by the War Department for the use of Other Ranks (enlisted personnel) deemed to require a handgun.  Of course, the primary users of revolvers were actually Officers, who were required to supply all of their own kit (including weapons) at personal expense.  Although some officers did purchase commercially marketed versions of the official War Department "issue" models, they were in fact permitted considerable leeway with respect to their handguns.  Webley had quite a range of other revolver designs over the years and, other than the small Bulldog-type "pocket revolvers", officers purchased and used most of these models.  

Here are some of my examples of these other types, all of which pre-date 1898 .....

RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) New Model, a solid-frame design -


Webley No. 4 (a.k.a. Webley-Pryse) Model, the first break-action Webley design -



Webley WG Army Model -


Webley WG Target Model -


Finally, there were earlier official War Department issue models of cartridge revolvers - the Adams Mark I, Mark II and Mark III .... and the Enfield Mark I and Mark II.  Also, although Webley was undoubtedly the predominant handgun manufacturer in Britain, the designs and products of other manufacturers (Adams, Tranter, etc.)  also saw extensive use by officers.

[Tascosa Joe]

Hmmmm.  Most of the guns for sale have the flat bottom grip.  They have what they are calling a Mark I, a III, a VI and one marked New Model.  What is a New Model?  The Mark I is the most expensive at $999 but it has lots of blue.  They all seem to be pretty nice guns.

[RattlesnakeJack]

.... What is a New Model?  ....

If that is all they are calling it, it could be either New Model RIC (like my RIC revolver above) or a different solid frame design called the New Model Army Express, like this -



As a general rule, it is only the Mark I through Mark VI military service revolvers on which the grip shape remains constant on a particular Mark.  For many of their commercial production models, Webley made more than one grip style available, along with any number of other options for the customer to select.   Although the "standard" grip shape for a particular model is the style most likely to be encountered, many examples also exist fitted with a different grip shape, as well as other "mix and match" variations of optional features like barrel length, finish, sight configurations and so on ......    

As a result, it can be difficult correctly identifying a particular revolver from just a description .... or even from photographs, unless they are very detailed.  If you can get more details (particularly markings, since most Webleys were marked with the model) I can probably help more.

[RattlesnakeJack]

While I am at it .... and since I was reminded of this photo anyway in the course of preparing my above replies .... here is a size comparison of my Webley RIC New Model revolver with a Colt SAA revolver (Uberti clone) chambered in .45 Colt -



I photographed them together to show someone who thought the Webley RIC model was not a "full size revolver" .... and had the impression that it was more in the "pocket revolver" class.

[Niederlander]

That would seem to be a "pocket revolver", Jack.  It just takes a pretty big pocket!

[Drydock]

Did'nt the Brits invent those big "Cargo" pockets?  Now we know why . . .   

[PJ Hardtack]

My 450 Tranter is the same size as Grant's RIC. I always thought it looked like something Sherlock Holmes would have carried in his coat pocket ....

"A .450 Eley ought to settle the matter, eh, Watson .... ?"

[RattlesnakeJack]

Yes indeed .... the guns of Holmes and Watson!



Todd, I trust that you are familiar with the leading academic paper on the subject?  

(Click on each of the following thumbnails to see the full-size scan .....)
       

More Holmesian "pistol clapping" -


Dr. Watson in action -

[pony express]

I think in that first pic, Martin might be in a bad position should the perp decide to resist!

Funny how the language seems to change, or maybe it's the British/American thing, but what I think of when he says"clapped a pistol to his head" is more like a pistol whipping, than just pointing. But then, the hillbilly in me would say "clapped a pistol upside his head"

[PJ Hardtack]

"The British and Americans - similar peoples separated by a common language."    Winston Churchill

:>)