another serial # request....with a puzzle....

[Wil O.]

I have a real puzzle here.
1st....no pictures. Gun belongs to a good friend with no computer.

Serial number is wayyy high..........1056XX..........most have 5 digit numbers.
Serial number confirmed with good light and a magnifying glass.
Marked as made in Mass. by Spencer Repeating Arms.
He is not sure if it is a rimfire or centerfire.
No cut-off.
The number 2 on the buttstock.

Anyone see a Spencer with this high of serial number?

This is NOT a reproduction.

A read that up to about 200,000 Spencers were made, but only about 46000 before the end
of the Civil War. (War of Northern Agression)

Any and all help appreciated.
Good Shootin!!
DarryH

[Two Flints]

Wil O,

Need the complete serial #  XXs don't help much   Or just Email it to me and I'll try to find out what I can about it.  I'm sure SSS members will offer information.

Two Flints

[Herbert]

serial number would put it in the New Modle Spencer range,it will should have a cutt off but it will be a Spencer cutt off that is part of the cartridge guide

[Arizona Trooper]

Herbert has the answer. Spencer started their SNs at 1 for M-1860s, then restarted at 1 for M-1865s. For some odd reason, they decided to start the M-1867s at the number they would have been at IF they had continued the M-1865s from the last M-1860s. So, M-1865s stop at about 23K, and M-1867s start up around 91,000.

[Snakeeater]

Here is another puzzle: ... what appears to be a M1867 Carbine with two serial numbers stamped on the underside of the barrel, only one of which is stamped atop the receiver, and is equipped with both the New Model "Spencer cutoff" cartridge follower guide, and the "small knife" extractor that came out in 1868. The serial number atop the receiver is 32281, and the other serial number stamped on the underside of the barrel is 30599 next to 32281. Barrel is 20" length in .56-50.

Photos of the carbine can be found at http://tenring.com/rifles-2/ (scroll down to the only Spencer carbine shown on the site).

[Herbert]

Very strang,the serial number would make it a Burnside modle 1865 contract Spencer carbine(with this serial number it should be fitted with a Stabler cutt-off and have the Burncide and 1865 modle markings),or a 1860 modle with a 3 groove Burncide Spencer barrel fitted, thie.parts for the1867 and NM spencers will fit in 1865 modle so upgrading with the Spencer cutt-off is simple,If the short blade extractor is to be used the barrel will also need to be changed for the short blade extractor to work properly,but it does not mention the short blade extractor is used.To be certain what it is I would need to see the action markings and the lower block and trigger plat to see if it was fitted for the Stabler cutt-off.It could also be a pats gun made to get rid of old stock by Winchester or on of the various surplus dealers who bought obsoleet parts

[Arizona Trooper]

Spencer used a lot of leftovers for N.M. production. You see all manner of oddball stuff with them. I suspect that the barrel was pulled off an M-1865 with a bad frame and renumbered. I know of a N.M. carbine that is made from an M-1865 rifle, sn 2440. The carbine is sn 440, has all the NM features and the receiver is drilled for a sporter sight. Under the forestock, the original 2440 sn is struck out, with 440 stamped beside it. 

[Snakeeater]

Top of receiver reads (in typical three lines:) "SPENCER REPEATING RIFLE CO. BOSTON, MASS. PAT'D. MARCH 6, 1860" just like any other M1860 carbine, but neither the trigger-plate nor lower block show any signs of being modified for the Stabler device. The barrel still retains 50% of its bluing on exterior and 99-100% beneath the wood; has the later 900 yard sight like the M1867 and NM, but as the bore has the 3-groove rifling in .56-50 which would suggest this carbine may be an M1860 carbine that was re-barrel rather than relined, and possibly refurbished but not by Springfield Armory. Wood shows no signs of ever having an inspector stock cartouche; has no inspector's initials on side of the barrel; and only a "C" character stamped in wood just ahead of the tang of the butt-plate and just behind the screw securing the forend. Parts are also sterile (none of the small letter stamps on individual parts as are normally seen on military arms).

[Herbert]

Gets even more puzling,as far as I know only Burncide made the 3 groove 20 inch barrels,Sprinfield may well have relined some worn out 1865 carbine barrels but I have no refrence to this other than they did repaire 1865 modle Spencer carbines.It seems more likly this gun was put together by somone from parts gatherd from posibly Burncide and Spencer carbines of various modles,still a interesting  carbine

[Trailrider]

I wonder at that "c". Could this stand for "condemned"? I've seen this stamped on a M1873 Springfield Carbine that had a bent hammer. But the C was stamped in the tang. Wonder if this could be a privately refurbished piece. E.C. Meacham did a lot of that sort of work following the CW, when various surplus guns were available.

[Snakeeater]

Despite the peculiarities noted supra, most notably the barrel, the carbine possesses the general characteristics of a New Model (1868) Spencer carbine. Not only does it utilize the same receiver as the New Model, including the same manufacturer data. The upper block is not merely an M1860 or M1865 modified upper block but appears as purposefully made specifically for the Spencer cutoff. Similarly, the lower block was purposefully made for the small knife extractor, so it cannot be reversed to use the earlier blade type extractor. In fact, even attempting to install a M1865 block assembly meets with no success because the knife slot in the barrel is too small to admit the larger blade extractor. Other than it having a lower serialization than is generally agreed upon as the serialization range for the New Model carbines, the only other part of the carbine that does not conform to the New Model specs is the 3-groove rifling. But I own several other guns that have been relined by Hoyt, Whitacre, and Romano enough to know how to recognize a relined barrel, and this barrel shows no evidence of a reline. But it is also not a M1865 barrel unless it was one that was not stamped "M 1865". Just as with Hoyt, Whitacre or Romano, if the owner desires a certain number of grooves or a faster or slower spiral, most any barrelmaker can rifling a barrel to the owner's specs. This bore is not minty bright but it is bright enough to have been replaced sometime over the past 140 years or so.  

[Herbert]

The Burncide Spencer barrels were not marked M1865,they however were cut for the large blade extractor so the short blade extractor would not work properly with a Burncide barrel unless modified.Starting to look like there has been a lot of outside of factory work done on this carbine.I agree the action looks to be a  NM action and the internals point to a  NM ,that serial number could be a mistake or a fake,your idear about the barrel being a aftermarket barrel makes sence or taking a 1/4 inch of a Burncide barrel at the chamber end and re-cutting the chamber and thread could also be a posability,this would now be OK with the shoet blade extractor( barrel described as 19 3/4 inches)this could be checked by measuring the distance to the sights and the forstock screw,I think this is unlikly though as it seems like a lot of work when a replacment barrel could be made or bought

[Snakeeater]

Cannot say just how Alex (seller) arrived with a measurement of 19 3/4" other than by approximation but just measuring the barrel length, it's a sixteenth of an inch under 20-inches. The centerline of the barrel nut (for forend) is 1.96-inches from front face of receiver; and back of front sight post is 1.19-inches from the face of muzzle. My M1865 measures very close to the same dimensions (1.94" and 1.21", respectively).

[Herbert]

Have you checked the twist rate.I know fitting a Burncide barrel to a NM Spencer seems unlikly but it could be done by partially filling the extractor slot and re-profiling(a simple matter for a gunsmith)and the serial number,front sight and 3 groove rifling point to this

[Snakeeater]

I suspect the barrel is not a Burnside contract barrel, but is by someone else (Springfield Armory perhaps if not some well-equipped gunsmith?). Rate of twist appears to be about 1:26; making only about a 3/4 turn in 20-inches. Also, by comparison to measurements with another Burnside barrel as well as with both an M1860 Rifle barrel and M1865 carbine, this barrel is smaller at the breech and larger at the muzzle. Flat-to-flat measures 0.990-in; the round at breech 1.089-in; with external muzzle diameter of 0.756-in.

Measurements taken at the same points on M1865 Carbine (7244), flat-to-flat measures 1.083; round at 1.156; and the muzzle diameter of 0.734. M1860 Rifle (8226) flat-to-flat measures 1.084; and round at 1.154 (cannot rely on muzzle dia as barrel cut down to carbine length). Flat-to-flat of other Burnside barrel (8296) measures 1.002; with round at 1.082; and muzzle diameter of 0.738, respectively.

[Herbert]

A 1 in 26 twist rate would rule out it being a Burncide barrel (should be 1 in 34 inches twist for the Burncide) and with the other measuments would rule out it being a Sprinfield barrel too,seems it origin is still a mystery

[Snakeeater]

Are you certain about a 34-inch spiral on the Burnside-Spencer or strictly the Burnside Patent Carbine? I was under the impression that both the spirals were the same regardless of whether it had 6-grooves (Spencer productio) or 3-groove (Springfield) rifling for the No. 56 cartridge, and the standard was a 24-inch spiral? The above 26-inch spiral was merely a approximation based on a visual observation of one of the grooves extending from about the 9 o'clock position rearward to about the 5 o'clock position, being a measurement of about 8/12ths (or three-quarters) of a turn in 20-inches, which approximates a 26-inch spiral. It certainly could prove a 24-inch spiral if measured mechanically. I will measure the twist again with a rod and see how much closer it measures to the 24-inch spiral or to more exactingly what it measures.

[Herbert]

I have loked at a lot and checked 4 diffrent Burncide 1865 Spencer Carbines and have got 1 in 34 inch twist in every one,all the 56-56 Specer 1860 rifles and carbines I have measured have measured very close to 1 in 48 twist ,the Sprinfield converted Burncide Spencer carbin to rifle has a new Sprinfield 1 in 42 twist barrel,For some reason I have never measured the twist rate in the re-lined Sprinfield barrels or the twist rate of the 6 groove 1865-67 and NM rifles and carbines but the ones I have looked at looked to be much slower than 1 in 24.I would be very interested in any measurmentd that any one else has for these barrels.As far as I knoe the only Spencer that has a 3 groove 1 in 24 inch twist rate is the expermental Sprinfield 56-46 Spencer that was used to test new type of cartridges for the Spencer,even with this they had to use a overly long(heavy) bullet to achive best acuracymI have never had the chance of measuring a factory Spencer sporting rifle so I do not know what the Spencer factory setled on for the 56-46 but the few I have looked at seem to also have a slower than 1 in 24 twist  , this is only a gess

[Snakeeater]

It must have been the .56-46 that a certain "Boolit Master" was referring to in regards to Springfield Armory's develiopment of that cartridge in determining 1:24 as the optimal twist. Tonight, using a rod I was able to measure the following twist rates:

M1860 Spencer Rifle (8226) at 1:48 (measuring a 1/4 turn in 12-inches).
M1865 Spencer Carbine (7244) at 1:32 to 1:34 (measuring a 1/2 turn in 16 to 16.5-inches).
M1865 Spencer Carbine (8296, Burnside Contract) at 1:30 (measuring a 1/2 turn in 15-inches).
M1868 N.M. Carbine (30599/32281) at 1:32 to 1:34 (measuring a 1/2 turn in 16 to 16.5-inches).

Conclusion: 3-groove barrel (30599 reserialised 32281) could dimensionally have been a M1865 Burnside barrel, including twist rate. So much for trying to assess the twist "visually"!

[Blair]

The research I have done regarding the Rate of Twist (RoT) in most rifled firearms indicates an "approximate" one half turn for any given barrel length.
Such as;
A muzzle loading Rifle Musket with a 40 inch barrel length will have a 1 - 72 RoT. (not exactly one half turn, which is why I use the term "approximate")
A muzzle loading Rifle with a 33 inch barrel will have a 1 - 66 RoT.
A breech loading Rifle (such as Shapes and Spencer) with 30 inch barrel will have a 1 - 60 to a 1 - 56 RoT.
A Carbine, according to the Military standards of the time, is a shoulder arm with a 26 inch barrel or less, will have a 1 - 48 RoT.
Now, some Carbines will have barrels as short as 22 to 20 inches may have a RoT as fast as 1 - 40 to 1 - 38.
My original, SS# 30211, Burnside made 1865 Spencer Carbine barrel RoT does not quite make a one half turn in it's 20 inch length. This indicates (to me ) that the RoT is approximately 1 - 38.
I hope this is helpful information.
My best,
  Blair