44.40: Compression Die ??????

[Cemetery]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

All I was able to find at MidwayUSA was this;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/978844/montana-precision-swaging-black-powder-compression-die-with-stem-44-caliber

Is that what I would need?  Wasn't able to find anything else on their website.

[Pettifogger]

Why would you need a compression die for a .44-40?  Absolutely not needed for a small case like the .44-40.

[Wolfgang]

Why would you need a compression die for a .44-40?  Absolutely not needed for a small case like the .44-40.

Ditto . . . just compress the powder with the bullet when seating it. 

[Blackpowder Burn]

+1 - I load a 33 grain charge (by weight) of Goex and compress while seating a Mav Dutchman cast of 20:1 alloy.  Even with a relatively soft bullet, I have no deformation issues.

[john boy]

Cemetery - I'm with the other gents for small case reloads.  The only time I compress powder is for the longer BPCR rounds, 38-55 and up.  Purpose is to maintain a good average velocity - SD and uniform ignition when shooting long range out to 500m for 38-55's and 1000yds for the 43 Spanish & 45-xx's

Shooting at our CAS distances: pour - seat bullet and crunch

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Cemetery,

If you are looking for best velocity from the 44-40 chambering, Big Lube®LLC bullets can help.  Since there's no need for cards, wads, cookies or anything else under the bullet, there's more room for powder.  Also, not all pistol caliber brass has the same interior volume.  Sorting by manufacturer can help both in consistency and volume.  I find that Winchester has generous volume in most calibers.  Orther manufacturers, although consistent to themselves, seem to hold less powder.

When you are resizing your brass you can sometimes gain some volume by only neck sizing.  Make sure the reloaded ammo chambers well though.  You may find that different guns have different chamber volumes.  If that's the case for your 44-40 guns you may want to separate your brass at the match.

With Big Lube®LLC bullets the generous lube groove hauls all the lube your gun can use.  Your rifle barrel should have a wet muzzle after shooting a stage.  That wet muzzle is indicative of sufficient lube to keep the fouling soft.  Soft fouling blows out with the following shot.  So, simply seat the bullet on enough powder that you are compressing it about 1/8" with the bullet.  A nice snug neck fit and good crimp will keep the bullet firmly in place.

More compression than this isn't usually needed.

Regards,

DD-MDA

[Bryan Austin]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

All I was able to find at MidwayUSA was this;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/978844/montana-precision-swaging-black-powder-compression-die-with-stem-44-caliber

Is that what I would need?  Wasn't able to find anything else on their website.

To simply answer your question-------YES!

However, I took a 44 special expander die and cut it short. Flattened the plunger and wahlah. I don't have a 44 spl so I didn't lose anything. (I could use it to re-size the case mouth only on the 44-40) By volume I added BP until I got .20 compression to replicate original compression discovered by W44WCF while dissecting original cartridges. Trying to replicate that compression with soft lead bullets won't work and will deform the point. Weight and density varies with different manufactures and batches as I am sure you already know.

According to my notes:

40gr Swiss FF
.20 compression
200gr Mav Dutch Big Lube .429
WLP
Winchester Brass
EST VEL = 960fps+ 15fps from 12feet chronograph setup muzzle correction. Notes say 1" groups at 50'. I better try that again though!!!  Before I compressed the powder I always let the powder settle by tapping the side of the case with a wood dowel to get my .20" then compress.


....factories used an average of .20" compression with 200 gr. bullets and .24" with 217 gr. bullets......

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6267.msg47348#msg47348

CASE CAPACITIES
Based on testing I have done with both balloon head and modern .44-40 cases, a balloon head .44-40 case holds only 2 grs. more powder than a solid head one......not the 7 gr. difference as indicated in the article that John Boy kindly referenced.  

FACTORY COMPRESSION
10 vintage .44-40 b.p. cartridges that I dissected that contained 40 grs. of b.p. by weight, indicated that the factories used an average of .20" compression with 200 gr. bullets and .24" with 217 gr. bullets.  A density check of the powder that was contained in those cartridges showed that it was 5% greater than the Goex FFG I have on hand.  In other words, 38 grs. of Goex would fill the same space as the 40 grs. of b.p. used in those cartridges.

BALLISTICS
The vintage .44-40 cartridges above, reassembled but using modern primers averaged 1,285 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.  Add 15 f.p.s. for the velocity decay of the bullet by the time it reached the chronograph and the corrected muzzle velocity would be 1,300 f.p.s. which compares nicely with vintage .44-40 factory ballistics.

.44-40 B.P. PRESSURE
Some data printed in 1927 shows a factory .44-40 b.p. load @ 15,000 p.s.i.  According to Hodgdon, Pyrodex will give similar pressures / ballistics to b.p. They show a .44-40 handgun load using Pyrodex ....943 f.p.s / 12,700 CUP.   Add 300 f.p.s. for a 24" rifle and that would be close to 1,250 f.p.s.  If your load produces less velocity, then the pressures would be less.    As we know, different brands of b.p. have different ballistic strengths and thus would give different ballistics / pressures at the same volume.  

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

All I was able to find at MidwayUSA was this;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/978844/montana-precision-swaging-black-powder-compression-die-with-stem-44-caliber

Is that what I would need?  Wasn't able to find anything else on their website.

Cemetery,
I think that may be for the bigger cases which take a bigger diameter bullet.

As Jack indicated, you can use your neck expander die to compress the powder.

Or you could go to your local gunshop and see if they have any 10MM jacketed hollow point bullets laying around.....the kind that have a complete jacket right up to the h.p. If they do, pick one up.

After placing the powder in the case, drop the bullet in and run it into your seating die to compress the powder.

Why would you need a compression die for a .44-40?  Absolutely not needed for a small case like the .44-40.

True..... if one is using harder bullets (12+bhn) and loading reduced loads (33 grs + -) where little compression is required.

However, if one wants to replicate the original cartridge with soft lead bullets and 40 grs of b.p. a compression die is most definitely needed or the bullet would really be distorted in the seating process.

w44wcf

[Pettifogger]

"True..... if one is using harder bullets (12+bhn) and loading reduced loads (33 grs + -) where little compression is required.

However, if one wants to replicate the original cartridge with soft lead bullets and 40 grs of b.p. a compression die is most definitely needed or the bullet would really be distorted in the seating process."

The original cases were balloon head.  Modern solid head cases aren't designed to hold 40 grains and squashing the power into a pellet shouldn't be the objective.

[john boy]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

Cemetery, let's go back to the 1st peg ... Why do you want to compress powder in a 44-40 CAS round and what do you believe it will achieve?

[Ranch 13]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

All I was able to find at MidwayUSA was this;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/978844/montana-precision-swaging-black-powder-compression-die-with-stem-44-caliber

Is that what I would need?  Wasn't able to find anything else on their website.

Yes you can use that, or you can also just get a Lyman M die or Rcbs expander and set it to compress the powder to the amount you want. Sometimes just the case mouth expander die will compress the powder enough to let the bullet seat without taking a chance on deforming it while seating and compressing the powder at the same time.

[Bryan Austin]

Cemetery, let's go back to the 1st peg ... Why do you want to compress powder in a 44-40 CAS round and what do you believe it will achieve?

He never said it was for a CAS round. Could be what he wants, but he never said it.

[Bryan Austin]

"True..... if one is using harder bullets (12+bhn) and loading reduced loads (33 grs + -) where little compression is required.

However, if one wants to replicate the original cartridge with soft lead bullets and 40 grs of b.p. a compression die is most definitely needed or the bullet would really be distorted in the seating process."

The original cases were balloon head.  Modern solid head cases aren't designed to hold 40 grains and squashing the power into a pellet shouldn't be the objective.

\\

I beg to differ. As I stated above I can get 40gr of certain BPs into a Starline or Winchester brass casing and get a compression of .20 pending density of the powder and granular size. Now the factory used a 217gr bullet with .24 compression. Most of the time I can only get 38gr with a .20 compression. Now we can always look at the sporting powder used in the originals, which were reported to look like a mixture of FF and FFF powders, and the powder of today and start a whole new topic but that has already been covered in previous topics. 

I started low and worked my way up to full loads to include compression and am happy with my results. I use light loads for plinking and heavy loads for "other".

HOWEVER my question is how much pressure did it take to compress factory loads compared to my loads? It takes almost all I can get with my turret press to compress .20-21 in my 44-40s and 45 Colt cartridges. Doubt seriously I could even get .23" much less .24" compression if I tried. So in all honesty I feel my compression result of .20" with the 200gr bullet may be somewhat equal to the factories .24" compression with a .217gr bullet. 

[john boy]

OK, I'll try it again...
Cemetery, let's go back to the 1st peg ... Why do you want to compress powder in a 44-40 CAS round and what do you believe it will achieve?

You happy now, Jack?   Cemetery can take his pick!

[Bryan Austin]

OK, I'll try it again...
Cemetery, let's go back to the 1st peg ... Why do you want to compress powder in a 44-40 CAS round and what do you believe it will achieve?

You happy now, Jack?   Cemetery can take his pick!

I can get some sleep now!

[w44wcf]

The original cases were balloon head.  Modern solid head cases aren't designed to hold 40 grains and squashing the power into a pellet shouldn't be the objective.

True...if Goex is used since it does not have the density of the early black powders.   However, Swiss and Diamondback do and thensome. With either of them it is not a problem using 40 grs by weight in modern brass since balloon head cases I tested hold only 2 grs more of b.p.  

Using Swiss or Diamondback in both Winchester and Remington brass requires no more compression than the .24" used by UMC in their 44-40 cartridge.

w44wcf

[Grapeshot]

I've been thinking of getting a compression die for my 44.40's.

All I was able to find at MidwayUSA was this;

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/978844/montana-precision-swaging-black-powder-compression-die-with-stem-44-caliber

Is that what I would need?  Wasn't able to find anything else on their website.

I use the Lee dies and their thru-the-die powder funnel neck expander/case belling die.  Once I drop the 2.5 cc's of Goex into the case, I lower the charged case and put a thin card wad on top of the powder and run the case back up it and it compresses the powder just enough to seat a MavDutchman right against the card wad.  YMMV.

[Cemetery]

OK, I'll try it again...
Cemetery, let's go back to the 1st peg ... Why do you want to compress powder in a 44-40 CAS round and what do you believe it will achieve?

You happy now, Jack?   Cemetery can take his pick!

JB, was opening to squeeze in as much powder as possible for the thunder and boom that is so very satisfying.

[john boy]

JB, was opening to squeeze in as much powder as possible for the thunder and boom that is so very satisfying.

Cemetery - your choice how you reload.  Remember, there will be an extra step.  Take a vote on the firing line if folks can identify any difference in the boom shooting reloads that have compressed additional powder.  My vote will be - Nope, no sonic booms!

[Bryan Austin]

Cemetery - your choice how you reload.  Remember, there will be an extra step.  Take a vote on the firing line if folks can identify any difference in the boom shooting reloads that have compressed additional powder.  My vote will be - Nope, no sonic booms!

Nope, no more boom or smoke from 35gr-40gr BUT MAYBE a bit more recoil! Certainly won't see full Black Powder loads during quick draw stuff