56-50 or 56-56 Spencer *** Photos Added ***

[the kernel]

After reading several past posts about serial numbers and different models my question are.

1. How can you determine which Spencer you have?(56-50 or 56-56 1860 or 1865)

2. Can you tell when it was manufactured by the serial number? (two flints, I know you thought mine might have been issued to someone in Co. C, 19th Pennsylvania Volunteer Cavalry, but when?

3. Who's right and who's wrong? Some I have read say that serial numbers may have been used over and that carbines start at 11,000 and so forth. Mine has a very low number of 1758 as you know so as you can see, the more I read the more I get confused.

4. Who is or what is Marcat or Marcot I think that's right. I see that name come up when I read about serial numbers also.

If anyone can shed some light on this subject it would greatly be appreciated!

[Four Eyes Henry]

All other then the 1860 have a stamp on the barrel saying m1865 or so, the 1860 reciever is also a bit "fatter".

http://www.amazon.com/Spencer-Repeating-Firearms-Roy-Marcot/dp/1884849148

Order one I would say

[Trailrider]

A quick and fairly accurate way is to count the number of lands and grooves in the rifling. The M1860, which were .56-56 (.54 caliber) have 6 lands and grooves, whereas the .56-50 (.50 caliber) have three lands and grooves.  In addition, the .56-56 rounds will probably (but NOT absolutely) fit tightly in a .56-50 chamber.  That is a less reliable indication, however.  A better way would be to make a CerroSafe low melting point bismuth alloy (available from Brownell's or Dixie Gun Works) chamber casting. If the casting is extended SLIGHTLY into the rifling, the measurement over the grooves should run around .545" DO NOT USE BULLET LEAD METAL TO MAKE A CHAMBER CASTING!

BTW, a .56-50 (or the commercial .56-52 round) round will fit and probably shoot okay (except for accuracy) in a .56-56 rifle/carbine. FYI, the numbers of the cartridge designation refer to the dimensions of the cartridge case just ahead of the rim and at the case mouth, NOT the bullet diameter, which is smaller.  There was quite a bit of variation from ammo manufacturer to manufacturer of the cartridges. To make matters more interesting, the rifling in most of the M1860 carbines (Spencer-made, not Burnside-made) tapers from breech to muzzle. The groove diameter of the six-land and grove rifling starts out about .545 just ahead of the chamber, but tapers to around .535" at the muzzle!    With cast or swaged lead alloy bullets, this does not do much to the pressure.  It does help when handloading, as the .56-56 round uses an outside-lubed heel bullet (like a .22rf), whereas the .50 caliber rounds are inside-lubed.  You can use an inside lubed bullet in a .56-56 case sized somewhere between .535 and .538" and get pretty good accuracy.  I've actually found a bullet made from Lyman #2 equivalent hardness performed more accuractely than a 1-20 tin-lead or pure lead bullet in a .56-56 carbine.

[Ibgreen]

Post up some pictures.  My new model is chambered in 56-50 with 6 groove rifling.  At least yours has markings

[Arizona Trooper]

Spencer 56-56 and 56-50 have 6 groove rifling. Springfield sleeved M-1860s and Burnside M1865s have 3 groove rifling. Check your barrel length. From the face of the breechblock to the muzzle will be 22" on an M-1860, or 20" on an M-1865, '67 or NM. Some civilian models do not have model markings, and a few very early M-1865 Spencer carbines have heavy 22" barrels like an M-1860.

[Herbert]

Whith that serial number your carbine can be a 1860 very unlikly as allmost all the first 10000 were rifles,1865 Spencer, may have M 65 stamped on barrel in front of action or Burncide contract modle which will be marked as made by Burncide and modle 1865,it can all so be a Springfield converted 56-50 carbine all so very unlikly,or even a late modle sporting rifle.Best way to know for sure what it is to post some pictures of the carbine ,especialy one of the top of the action

[the kernel]

thanks everyone for posting. i'll have some pictures up and running by the weekend. you guys are great and i really appreciate all the info.

the kernel

[the kernel]

If you like go to www.relicman.com and look on the second page of weapons for item W1322 and you will find mine with serial number 1758, according to Harry it's a 56-56 with a 22inch barrel. Regardless of what it is, I love it! It's going to look Fantastic hanging on my wall.

[Herbert]

Your carbine is a very early expermental Spencer 1860 56-56 carbine made to try for carbine contracts,it is made on a rifle frame and if original is very rare indeed,if you can take the for stock off there should be a matching serial number on the barrel,if this matches and is not a shortend rifle barrel(which may even be corect) you have a very important part of Spencer history,to me it looks right but a photo of the front sight and crown would help.In november 1861 capain Alfred Pleasonton tested the Henry and Spencer rifles as well as a Spencer 56-56 carbine and the board stronly recommended the carbine for the mounted service,this would have been a pre production carbine but very likly simular to your example

[the kernel]

Two Flints,

Here are the pics that I took of my Spencer. I'll leave it up to you which ones to post. Serial numbers are matching and barrel is 20 7/16 in length from front of receiver to tip of barrel.

Thanks again,

the kernel




















                                     (Photos Added by Two Flints)

[Herbert]

Going by the date this carbine would have been made and it configeration I belive there is a very good chance this is the Spencer carbine put together for the Massachusetts breechloader trials of 1863

[the kernel]

I want give a Special Thanks to "Two Flints" for posting my pictures, and to Herbert for your wealth of knowledge on my carbine. So I guess my next question is directed to Herbert. Are you saying that my carbine was used as a demonstrator to sell the weapon to the different states? If so, then it was probably never attached to a specific unit during the war which is kind of a bummer but it is still a magnificent piece of history which will still look great hanging on my wall.

Thanks again!

[Trailrider]

Two Flints,

Here are the pics that I took of my Spencer. I'll leave it up to you which ones to post. Serial numbers are matching and barrel is 20 7/16 in length from front of receiver to tip of barrel.

Thanks again,

the kernel

You need to measure the barrel length from the front of the breechblock, not the front of the receiver.  Drop a cleaning rod or dowel down the barrel with the the action closed. Mark or note where the muzzle comes on the rod, and then measure that distance.  I rather suspect the barrel is a 22-inch.

[Two Flints]

kernel,

 "still look great hanging on my wall"    Shame on you Convert it and shoot it

Two Flints

[the kernel]

it would be pretty cool to shot I must admit. guess I need to find a good gunsmith and have him check it out before I put the money into converting.

[Herbert]

It would be very unlikly that any Spencer carbine made during the civil war was not used in war one way or another,even the ones that were bought privetly,if this is indeed a demenstration carbine as I suspect it would have been sold after the trials,very likly to a military member.It would be very interesting to find the 1863 Massachusetts records of the arms tested to see if serial numbers were recorded.Have you checked with S&S for a original back sight ,this carbine deserves to be compleet,it is very likly a one of a kind if not very uncommon,so this may be one of the times I would recomend not shooting it or if you do,not very oftern,then imeditly put the original breach block back in,this carbine realy deserves to be in a major musem

[Mannheim Bob]

Having immersed myself in Spencer history courtesy of Marcot, the first thing that jumps out to me is the absence of a carbine sling bar on the left side.  That and the low 4-digit serial number definitely indicate (to me anyway, remember I am a neophyte to Spencers) that this was a prototype build on a rifle frame.  The barrel and forestock look contemporary.  So maybe this is an important piece of history?

[Arizona Trooper]

It could also be a post war cut down rifle. Someone did do a nice job on it. You would need an expert to look at things like the barrel crown to see if it is armory work or a gunsmith. Carbine forestocks will fit a rifle barrel and the band is in the same place. That firing pin is definitely not armory. Neat carbine either way! That serial number puts it either in the second delivery to the 5th/6th Mich, or the Ohio Sharpshooters lot. Survival rate of those is quite low as they were used hard for the two years. Spencer was under a lot of pressure to deliver at that time (Jan.-Feb. of '63), so it's unlikely they would have pulled a rifle off the line to make a carbine unless it had failed inspection. Arms that failed went to civilian sales, and they have assembly numbers on the major parts.

[Herbert]

A Spencer carbine was trialed at the Massaghusetts breechloader trials and there is refrenceces of Spencer carbines as having beed shown to the ordnance department before this,but as AT has stated it would have to be closly examined and even then one could not be certain as there is no other Spencer carbine made this early to compare it too that I am aware of.The firing slide has seen some very rough modifications but can be replaced by a good original from S&S.A photo of the crown would all so help.I think every thing looks factory original from what I can see but I dought  any one could be absolutly certain of this unless records could verify it.The Massachusetts breechloader trials records of 1863 may have the serial number of the Spencer carbine trialed if the records can be found

[the kernel]

Please excuse my ignorance, but when you speak of a picture of the "crown", what exactly are you referring to? Once again, thanks for the posts on my Spencer!