1860 Spencer Rifle, Served in two wars?

[Mannheim Bob]

Howdy.

First post and first Spencer.

The rifle I picked up here in Germany.  Its serial number is 6151.

I have not received my Marcot book yet (on order along with a centerfire breechblock) so I am using Internet Research to drive my conclusions.  Please let me know where I am incorrect.

It is a rifle, 30" barrel, 3 bands. 

Spencer-made (not Burnside) 1860 Patent dates.

It currently wears a post-civil war 3-groove .50 caliber barrel and Stabler cut off.

Apparently it was refurbished after the Civil War and sold  to the French for the Franco-Prussian war, where it was captured by a German and has resided in Germany since.

Metal has no appreciable finish, and is a fine, grey patina.  Wood might have been sanded at one point (its lightly slimmer between the bands on the fore-end, but looks original and has the usual handling dings but no cracks in the butt over the magazine tube. 

I do plan on reloading for it and shooting it.

[Two Flints]

Hi,

Checked on your serial #6151 and it appears that your Spencer rifle may have been originally issued to a member of Company A, H, or E, of the 72nd Indiana Volunteer Cavalry sometime in 1864.


Check out this link: 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,38988.msg496583/topicseen.html#msg496583

Thanks for the photos and for joining SSS

Two Flints

[Herbert]

These rifles were converted to 1865 rifle spects by Springfield from1866-68 a total of 1,215 had the alterations,so they are one of the harder to find Spencers variations,you have a very desirable Spencer

[PJ Hardtack]

Vie gehts, Mannheim Bob; alles gut?

Congratulations on your Spencer find. If you wish to shoot it with the original RF block, find a copy of a book written by Peter Schiffers, a German national.  It's available from: manatarmsbooks.com   

Schiffers tested 12 original Civil War carbines, including the Spencer. He recreated the brass and bullets and test fired them at 50-100-200 metres for accuracy and function. His results and conclusions differ somewhat from the 'everyone knows' school of thought.

[Mannheim Bob]

Vie gehts, Mannheim Bob; alles gut?

Ja, Gehts Gut, naturlich.  Danke.

Congratulations on your Spencer find. If you wish to shoot it with the original RF block, find a copy of a book written by Peter Schiffers, a German national.  It's available from: manatarmsbooks.com   

Schiffers tested 12 original Civil War carbines, including the Spencer. He recreated the brass and bullets and test fired them at 50-100-200 metres for accuracy and function. His results and conclusions differ somewhat from the 'everyone knows' school of thought.

  Thanks for the link on that.  I will get a copy.  I am also ordering a CF block and am looking for info on the right brass.  I understand that with the original blade ejector, the Starline brass won't work, too small a rim.  Boo hiss.

  Has anyone had experience with the Dixie Gunworks brass?  Part # KA3405 BRASS CASES .56/.50 PKG OF 50    $105.00

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_101_287&products_id=13051

  Another alternative might be 32 gauge CBC brass shotgun shells?  I have seen a site where a fella trimmed them down to fit a replica, but I believe the originals have more generous chambers and certainly larger rims.

  I would like to get this thing shooting again.

Hi,

Checked on your serial #6151 and it appears that your Spencer rifle may have been originally issued to a member of Company A, H, or E, of the 72nd Indiana Volunteer Cavalry sometime in 1864.


Check out this link: 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,38988.msg496583/topicseen.html#msg496583

Thanks for the photos and for joining SSS

Two Flints

These rifles were converted to 1865 rifle specs by Springfield from1867-74 a total of 1,215 had the alterations,so they are one of the harder to find Spencers variations,you have a very desirable Spencer

  Thanks for the details on that!  Sounds interesting, particularly its dual-war history.

  No idea what it is worth, but I don't plan to sell it... :-)

Mannheim Bob

[PJ Hardtack]

Mannheim Bob

If I was you, I'd be tracking down Peter Schiffers. When I first got his book, Man At Arms editor Stuart Mowbray gave me his email
address so I could ask him a few questions.

He'd be a wonderful resource person for you.

[Herbert]

These converted Springfield Spencer use very diffrent rifling and cartridges than the civil war rifles.Before loading it is best to check the groove diameter of the barrel and the twist rate of the barrel.Loaded right these rifles can be very acurate if the crown and rifling are still in good condition

[Mannheim Bob]

These converted Springfield Spencer use very diffrent rifling and cartridges than the civil war rifles.Before loading it is best to check the groove diameter of the barrel and the twist rate of the barrel.Loaded right these rifles can be very acurate if the crown and rifling are still in good condition

  Herbert:  Thanks for the tip.  The rifle has a 3-groove bore that is mirror bright on the inside, with a very nice crown.  I think it will be a shooter, alright. 

  Any advice on micing a 3-groove barrel is welcome.

[Mannheim Bob]

Mannheim Bob

If I was you, I'd be tracking down Peter Schiffers. When I first got his book, Man At Arms editor Stuart Mowbray gave me his email
address so I could ask him a few questions.

He'd be a wonderful resource person for you.

  I'll have to see if I can find out how to get in touch, or where he lives.  Thanks for the tip!

[Herbert]

  Herbert:  Thanks for the tip.  The rifle has a 3-groove bore that is mirror bright on the inside, with a very nice crown.  I think it will be a shooter, alright. 

  Any advice on micing a 3-groove barrel is welcome.

The best way to measure a 3 groove barrel is to roll the bullet that has been pushed into the rifling about  1 inch-25mm ,from the breach(some rifles will have slitly larger diameter groove diameters here)knock the bullet out from the muzell.Now with a set of digital or dial vernia calipers,place the bullet between the jaws, with slight pressure on the jaws and roll the bullet between the jaws,you will get a a high reading and a low reading,wright these down and repeat to double check,the high reading is very close to groove diameter.once you have this diameter add.002 inch and that is the diameter that will work best.Twist rate is all so very important for bullet lenth choice,I do not know the twist rate in the Springfield relined barrels so you will have to measure it for best bullet selection

[Preston County Rider]

Mannheim Bob - I have an 1860 rifle with a blade extractor and the Starline brass works just fine. I've also used the 32 gauge blanks from Black Squirrel for re-enacting and they work as well. I have the S&S center fire block. Good shooting..or should I say gut shutzen (or something like that)

PCR

[Mannheim Bob]

Mannheim Bob - I have an 1860 rifle with a blade extractor and the Starline brass works just fine. I've also used the 32 gauge blanks from Black Squirrel for re-enacting and they work as well. I have the S&S center fire block. Good shooting..or should I say gut shutzen (or something like that)

PCR

  Awesome.  There is a shop in Alzey (20 minute drive) that claims to have the Starline brass.  They also have the Hornady .50 caliber hollow base bullets which might just work.  The down side is they are on vacation until 1 August... :-(

  Have you tried using 32 gauge brass shells to make .56-50 loads?

  Gut Schiessen would be the correct phrase, yes.

  Thanks for the info!

[PvtGreg]

Hi Mannheim Bob,

Please see this Post: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,41317.msg520974/topicseen.html#msg520974 on making 56-50 brass for the Armisport 56-50 Spencer. 

Its even easier an original 56-50 in that the last two steps - re-size the case right up to the rim & lathing down the .2 or .3 in of the base body near the rim are not necessary for original 56-50s.

Pvt Greg

[Mannheim Bob]

Hi Mannheim Bob,

Please see this Post: http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,41317.msg520974/topicseen.html#msg520974 on making 56-50 brass for the Armisport 56-50 Spencer. 

Its even easier an original 56-50 in that the last two steps - re-size the case right up to the rim & lathing down the .2 or .3 in of the base body near the rim are not necessary for original 56-50s.

Pvt Greg

  That's a great tip, and the brass is way cheaper than getting the Starline, which cost me 41 Euros for 20 pieces.  I have a set of the RCBS dies on order, so I will give them a try. 

  Now to find .515" bullets.  The biggest I have seen in a catalog here are .510, which even hollow base might not bump up enough to get the fit I need for good accuracy, much less a tight neck fit in the case.  I believe the RCBS expander is based on the idea of a .515 bullet.  I don't believe a 3-groove barrel is a good candidate for paper patching either.

  I love this comminity!

  Now I gotta also play with 8x58RD loads for my Remington Rolling Block I just bought...

[PvtGreg]

Try Dave - http://www.montanabulletworks.com/

I get all mine from him.  They are solid base .512 from a RCBS mold, but he might have another that will work for you.

I get fantastic accuracy from my Armisport with what he casts for me.  In fact I use my Spencer at my SASS clubs long range match on the 100yrd & 200yrd stage & can consistently get 8" groups (the target is an 8" 'bang & clang' target) at 200 & 6" at 100.

Yours will be different of course - but Dave casts a heck of a bullet.

[Preston County Rider]

Bob - try S&S Firearms in NY - they have a "Smith" bullet that is .515 that works in my 56-50 (which was a 56-56 originally) - bullets are inexpensive and a good way to get shooting
PCR

[Herbert]

In a friends Burncide converted Spencer carbine to rifle by Springfield(with a 1in 42 twist rate and .514 groove diameter)the Lyman 515-139D bullet works very well,seated with one greese groove showing over 45gr of FF powder(you will need a compresion die or modify your expander die to do this properly.With luck your Sprinfield conversion will have the same rifling dementions but I would still check the measurments

[Mannheim Bob]

 Thanks for the suggestions. 

Unfortunately I can't ship bullets through the mail, so I am left with finding 350 grain .515 slugs here or casting my own.  Having never cast before, it would be a challenge, but I imagine I can handle it.

  So far I have seen references to Lyman, Lee, and NEI molds.  Rapine seemed to make a good one but went out of business.

  I can secure Starline brass or 32 gauge brass shotgun shell casings locally.

[Jobe Holiday]

There is a new mould maker in the field now. They are Moose Moulds, and you can reach them by email at moosette@moosemoulds.com .

I have seen their work and it is most excellent, and with good delivery times. They have picked up where Rapine left off and have an excellent product. I would try them for your mould needs.

Jobe