shooting at 25 meters/versus shooting "gun writer style"

[petrinal]

it is interesting at how a short distance you test your guns in the USA by gunwriters, in general,  for accuracy.

in my opinion, shooting at 10 o 12 yards wont tell you anything  serious at all about real accuracy. Shooting fast, IPSC or cowboy actio shooting, will tell you very little also, and shooting at steel plates even less.

try several guns at 25 meters,  standing, of course, hand held, and you will see the big difference between guns and loads that are really accurate.

these two pictures show that 25 meters, can tell you many many things about you gun and loads...

at 10 meters, the gun was shooting practically the same with the first load, 23 grains plus filling (not a wad) and grease...and with the second, 23 grains and no filling, just ball over powder, plus grease. Exactly the same.



however,  the big differences came later, when we took the gun to 25 meters, hand held of course, and these differences between both loads began to show clearly.....the one with filling was more accurate, and reduced the opening in elevation...sligthly increasing them in windage..

see below


first load......23 grains 4F (yes, 4FFF, no 3FFF) plus filling, ball, and grease at 25 meters , one hand, standing



the second load (only holes in red, other holes were shot with another revovler) showed that no filling between ball and charge increased elevation differences, but reduced sligthly windage differences.

second load....23 grains 4FFF, no filling, ball and grease at 25 meters, one hand held, standing



in short, I am fully convinced that shooting " gun writer style" , at 7/10/12 yards, and shooting at plates, wont tell you about the real accuracy potential of your loads. Shooting at 25 meters, international competition style, will help you to improve not only your loads, but your mistakes in hand held shooting, and the possible faults of you,  your gun´s trigger and grip.

the gun was slighty modified...it is an UBERTI Griswold & Gunnison in 454 caliber, the trigger was modified by myself with a trigger stop,  a new trigger made my hand, and I installed a taller front sight.

anyone with medium skills and some tools can fine tune any SAA.  It is not high engeenering, just some good knowledge of your gun is needed..though gunsmiths, of course..will tell you something different   , and charge you hundreds of dollars for something, that with time, you can do yourself...

In my case, i didnt replace the hammer spring for a more comfortable cock, as it is a detriment to serious accuracy. It will make the hammer fall slower...good for CAS, but not good for tough accuracy matches, the ones I really enjoy.



all the best

[Bugscuffle]

We appreciate your input and opinions. They seem to be well thought out and concise, but they do not completely apply to CAS. In CAS we do shoot at steel targets and we do shoot at short ranges. The emphasis is more on speed than absolute accuracy. In CAS we mimic the way (at least the way we think) that gunfights were fougt in the old west. In those gunfights a bullet through the abdomen was just as effective as a bullet through the heart, so accuracy was sacrificed for speed. it was a matter of who could bring effective fire on the opponent first, not who could put the most accurate shot through the brain of the other guy.

[Trailrider]

There is a difference between the accuracy of the gun, versus the accuracy of the shooter plus the gun.  I do test my pistols and loads at 25 yards (I still think in yards, not meters), using a rest for my hands. But when I sight in, I do so using a rest for my gun arm (I shoot Duelist in CAS) but from a standing position. This allows the gun to recoil the way it will when I shoot.

Gun writers are generally giving a general observation about functionality, as well as accuaracy...to an extent. But as others have pointed out, in practice absolute accuracy is only essential when you are shooting at long ranges, and some of the writers have advocated using handguns at ranges I consider somewhat less than sporting if we are referring to game. For target work, of course, it is a different story. I have seldom seen a pistol that was less accurate than I am! 

[petrinal]

We appreciate your input and opinions. They seem to be well thought out and concise, but they do not completely apply to CAS. In CAS we do shoot at steel targets and we do shoot at short ranges. The emphasis is more on speed than absolute accuracy. In CAS we mimic the way (at least the way we think) that gunfights were fougt in the old west. In those gunfights a bullet through the abdomen was just as effective as a bullet through the heart, so accuracy was sacrificed for speed. it was a matter of who could bring effective fire on the opponent first, not who could put the most accurate shot through the brain of the other guy.

in my opinion gun fights have little or nothing to do with CAS. I would say that CAS has more to do with Hollywood, not with actual gun fights that could happen at any distance, long, short...

i suppose that the first, or maybe second thing in a gun fight is to look for cover or protection. It reminds me of honour duellings, that had little or nothing to do with whah movies has told us...

the duellers were looking for protection by holding the arm protecting the face and by putting the the left hand above the heart...

http://www.elforodeltirador.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=35097


CAS and gunfights had little in common, as IPSC and street fighting have also very little in common...the main difference is that in real life your targets return fire...so standing in front of them and shooting at several of them as fast as possible is not realistic. Cas is just a sport, fun...nothing to do with real life.

by the way, TOP SPEED is got in CAS by shooting mild, almost laughable loads, in order to repeat shots at the speed of light (it is a trick that MICULEK does...to shoot very very mild loads in his SMITH´s). Have you tried to do CAS with full loaded 45 COLT, the original load of 35 grains of BP and a 255 grains lead bullet? you wont get speed wiht that load..it was not designed for speed..it was designed to stop a running horse!

even a more moderate load of 28 grains of original 3F or 2F BP  has a lot of recoil...and that was the most common load in the old times.....you wont do much speed with it as it recoils like dynamite in the hand!

CAS and the real FAR WEST have nothing or very little in common. In the far west you needed:

-accuracy (long range accuracy saved many hunters life as the INDIANs were only dangerous in really close quarters...even with firearms..)

-power (to stop both very fanatic indigenous enemies and get meat on the table).

in the west they used their sights, thats why their guns were many times modified it they didnt have good ones (i have seen many COLT NAVIES modified, you can see some in the PIONEERS museum of SLC, UT).



all the best

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
The 45 Colt Black Powder Championship is using a  45 colt load and everyone shoots the same ammo . We have a fair playing field .
No 10 grains of powder and 30 grains of cream of wheat . Wonder if that's how cereal Killer came about

[Bugscuffle]

Pertinal, please look again at what I wrote. " In CAS we mimic the way (at least the way we think) that gunfights were fougt in the old west. " Check the parenthetical phrase. It doesnt make a hill of beans how the gunfights were really fought. It matters how we depict them. This is a game and we play it our way. If you want something more true to life, take your gun out into the  street and start shooting.You'll gt your wish.

[rickk]

Its all about "good enough to be happy with the results"... your happiness with your results.

Some are happy with "good enough" ... some are never happy and always want more.

Some look for a needle in a haystack and trip into the water trough looking for said needle.

(I'm not totally sure what the last line really meant but I just made it up and it sounded good when I typed it).

It's a big world, and we can all fit in it so far.

Rick

[petrinal]

Pertinal, please look again at what I wrote. " In CAS we mimic the way (at least the way we think) that gunfights were fougt in the old west. " Check the parenthetical phrase. It doesnt make a hill of beans how the gunfights were really fought. It matters how we depict them. This is a game and we play it our way. If you want something more true to life, take your gun out into the  street and start shooting.You'll gt your wish.

if you want something authentic, when it comes to shooting classic guns, you dont need to go out to the street and get shot by Police,
all you have to do is to load your guns the same way they were loaded in the old times, when your life depended on them:

In other words: full power loads...28 GRAINS of 3F or 2F, or 35 Grains...then you will realize something:

CAS has nothing to do with the old times...you wont get speed, or spectacular performances of  fast shotting.....it is impossible with those loads.

in short, someone who does CAS only, shoots minimum loads (you call it "cowboy action shooting loads") with smokeless or bp substitutes is doing "trick shooting", to gain speed, nothing more than that..

if a gunfighter or soldier or rancher of the old times would try your CAS loads, he would laugh. He needed "the autenthic thing", in other words, full power (and full recoil/forget speed shooting) loads to survive. And of course they shot one hand hel,  and used their sights.

in my opinion, dynamic shooting disciplines are far away from reality, and CAS is no exception.

all the best

[rickk]

CAS is a game.

Like Checkers ... only with guns.

CAS is not real..

[Cherokee Reb]

Find an NCOWS posse and shoot there. Smaller targets at longer distance. I've not measured the rifle targets at the Johnson County Rangers range, but being across a creek and up on the hillside, they are at least 35-40 yards. Yep, you have to slow down and aim .

CR

[cheatin charlie]

IF you want to see some impressive blackpowder SASS shooting go to a shoot where they are shooting Pale Rider Gunfighter.

They shoot mostly .44/.45 cal with 240 or 250 grain bullets with a full case of blackpowder in pistol and rifle.  I think they shoot

70 grains in the shotgun.   They shoot fast and accurate.  There is room and a class for everybody.  Do not sell SASS shooters

short.

[Bugscuffle]

Pertinal, You keep missing the point that we are trying to make. O.K. I'll try to put this as succinctly as I can. We have a game and that game has rules. We play the game by those rules. If it isn't historically correct enough for you or if it isn't as realistic as you might want, invent your own game or go somewhere else, but quit whining about how we play our game. I mean, what do you want? Are you disappointed that no one gets killed? It is a game, not a re-enactment.

if you want something authentic, when it comes to shooting classic guns, you dont need to go out to the street and get shot by Police,
all you have to do is to load your guns the same way they were loaded in the old times, when your life depended on them:

In other words: full power loads...28 GRAINS of 3F or 2F, or 35 Grains...then you will realize something:

CAS has nothing to do with the old times...you wont get speed, or spectacular performances of  fast shotting.....it is impossible with those loads.

in short, someone who does CAS only, shoots minimum loads (you call it "cowboy action shooting loads") with smokeless or bp substitutes is doing "trick shooting", to gain speed, nothing more than that..

if a gunfighter or soldier or rancher of the old times would try your CAS loads, he would laugh. He needed "the autenthic thing", in other words, full power (and full recoil/forget speed shooting) loads to survive. And of course they shot one hand hel,  and used their sights.

in my opinion, dynamic shooting disciplines are far away from reality, and CAS is no exception.

all the best

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

if you want something authentic, when it comes to shooting classic guns, you dont need to go out to the street and get shot by Police,
all you have to do is to load your guns the same way they were loaded in the old times, when your life depended on them:

In other words: full power loads...28 GRAINS of 3F or 2F, or 35 Grains...then you will realize something:

CAS has nothing to do with the old times...you wont get speed, or spectacular performances of  fast shotting.....it is impossible with those loads.

in short, someone who does CAS only, shoots minimum loads (you call it "cowboy action shooting loads") with smokeless or bp substitutes is doing "trick shooting", to gain speed, nothing more than that..

if a gunfighter or soldier or rancher of the old times would try your CAS loads, he would laugh. He needed "the autenthic thing", in other words, full power (and full recoil/forget speed shooting) loads to survive. And of course they shot one hand hel,  and used their sights.

in my opinion, dynamic shooting disciplines are far away from reality, and CAS is no exception.

all the best

I see there is a P'ing match in the makin', and it is really just a difference in attitude with lots of room for a variety of opinions,  It is all encompassed in frontier action shooting in the larger sense.  We have SASS as the most widespread, NCOWS for those into more historical matters, GAF for late 19th Century military personations & kit, and there is "3 - Gun, Quick draw, and Mounted action shooting. 

There is also a popular personal approach to loading FAS ammo, called "WARTHOG".  I think this may be your home.  There are two basic rules;  1. The caliber starts with a "4", and 2. Loads must be at least full service levels from "the day" (there is no credit for over stuffing the cases, as that can become problematic.) Check it out here;  But don't leave cascity, as you will soon learn that a lot of us visit and post in both forums.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0

[petrinal]

Pertinal, You keep missing the point that we are trying to make. O.K. I'll try to put this as succinctly as I can. We have a game and that game has rules. We play the game by those rules. If it isn't historically correct enough for you or if it isn't as realistic as you might want, invent your own game or go somewhere else, but quit whining about how we play our game. I mean, what do you want? Are you disappointed that no one gets killed? It is a game, not a re-enactment.

i am dissapointed by what CAS has become, a game where speed is everything, shooting at distances that are too short,  and shooting very mild loads to obtain that speed.


that´s all.

[petrinal]

I see there is a P'ing match in the makin', and it is really just a difference in attitude with lots of room for a variety of opinions,  It is all encompassed in frontier action shooting in the larger sense.  We have SASS as the most widespread, NCOWS for those into more historical matters, GAF for late 19th Century military personations & kit, and there is "3 - Gun, Quick draw, and Mounted action shooting. 

There is also a popular personal approach to loading FAS ammo, called "WARTHOG".  I think this may be your home.  There are two basic rules;  1. The caliber starts with a "4", and 2. Loads must be at least full service levels from "the day" (there is no credit for over stuffing the cases, as that can become problematic.) Check it out here;  But don't leave cascity, as you will soon learn that a lot of us visit and post in both forums.

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0

thanks so much.

i am not the only who shares this point of view, as I can see. Shooting a 45 colt, with an energy close to a 32 HR, is dissapointing...from my point of view. If  you train hard, you will be really fast, and will shoot "bursts" with your revolver...but...at the price of missing "the authentic feeling", of shooting this great caliber as it was originally conceived.

all the best

[wildman1]

petrinal, some of us can accept the fact that there are differences in opinion some cannot. That does not in my opinion make you wrong or right. It just means we may have different opinions. Others will tell you to go into the street and start shooting.  

Pertinal, please look again at what I wrote. " In CAS we mimic the way (at least the way we think) that gunfights were fougt in the old west. " Check the parenthetical phrase. It doesnt make a hill of beans how the gunfights were really fought. It matters how we depict them. This is a game and we play it our way. If you want something more true to life, take your gun out into the  street and start shooting.You'll gt your wish.

I'm thinkin that at best is irresponsible. But that is just my opinion. WM

[1961MJS]

Hi

Well, I don't see loading a .45 LC down so far that I don't have much use for the ear plugs, but I don't see developing a giant flinch either.  My guess is that there is a decently accurate and powerful load in between somewhere.  My question is about what speed that is.  The reason I ask is that the place I regularly buy bullets (Missouri Bullet) company has two grades of .45 AUTO and .45 Long Colt bullets.  One hardness is labeled Cowboy #1 .452 Diameter .45 Colt (.452) 250 Grain RNFP Brinell 12 For Cowboy Action Velocities, and the other is labeled .45 Elmer K .452 Diameter .45 Colt (.452) 255 Grain SWC Brinell 18 For Elmer Keith Fans.  Which hardness did the cowboys shoot?  I'll ask before I buy too many, I don't even have a place to keep my stuff in OKC yet.

Later

Mike
Moore OK

[PJ Hardtack]

No one is obligated to shoot wimp loads in CAS. If getting your name in lights is the object, then it becomes a matter of choice.

I am very pleased that in our club, the .44s and .45s still rule, and no one shoots light loads, smokeless or BP. We all like to shoot cap & ball as well, no fillers. Most of us shoot 'Duellist' as that's how it was done in the era.
Several of us have opted to shoot 'Frontiersman' at other shoots simply because we enjoy the challenge of shooting BP in rifle, pistol and shotgun. It's messy, time consuming and if something can go wrong with a gun, it will happen to a cap & ball BP shooter. Shooting a string of 70 gr BP shotgun loads from an under lever shotgun or one with a splinter fore end is an exciting proposition ....

When others are relaxing or socializing at lunch time, we're busy cleaning and preparing for the next phase of stages. When the smoke clears, it's back to the cleaning to get ready for the next day.

I've noticed that after watching the 'Top Guns' race through a few stages, it's the possees with BP shooters that hold the attention of spectators. I think it's the smoke and smell of BP. The pressure is off and the shooters are having a lot of fun.

[pony express]

  One hardness is labeled Cowboy #1 .452 Diameter .45 Colt (.452) 250 Grain RNFP Brinell 12 For Cowboy Action Velocities, and the other is labeled .45 Elmer K .452 Diameter .45 Colt (.452) 255 Grain SWC Brinell 18 For Elmer Keith Fans.  Which hardness did the cowboys shoot?  I'll ask before I buy too many, I don't even have a place to keep my stuff in OKC yet.

Later

Mike
Moore OK

You'll probably be fine with the softer bullets. At permissable CAS velocities,(max 1000 pistol, regular factory loads in pistol would be about 800-850, I imagine)They will shoot well and not cause leading. The harder ones are for the guys that want to make a .44 magnum out of a .45 Colt, or for .454 Casull, etc. That hardness is not at all needed for 700-900 fps loads.