US Firearms 1910 and 1911s

[Virginia Gentleman]

Any word on when or if these will be put into production and released for folks like me to steal from their retirement fund in order to buy them?

[Bar Stool Billy]

 Personaly I think it would be a mistake for them to release the 1910 and 1911. First of all the market is saturated with 1911's right now, everyone and their brother makes one. Second of all if they don't change some of the features that I see on their prototype I would not bother. The thumb safety is to small for one and the hammer on the 1910 is just plain ugly. I am sure the quality will be good but they are not on my list of 1911's to own.

BSB

[CW Price Texas Ranger]

Compare the proposed USFA 1911 against the SW1911 and for about $800 you get a good accurate pistol.  I can beat its grouping with my 1911 Colt, but the Colt is heavily customized and would cost a lot more than the USFA.  The SW right out of the box is IMHO very reliable, once the early models were sent back to SW for modifications.  The only real things I have done is put on Bloodwood grips and got rid of the one peice recoil spring guide rod because I dont like one peice rods.  Now, I would love to own a USFA 1911, but with the availability of good government models and the SW at far less money, I would not be buying one of them.  I feel that USFA has way overpriced their models.

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Well, I have to agree with CW, but "a fool and his money"... (Me being the fool)

They are overpriced but there are some features I find appealing.  The original style finish and government markings, original style grips.  That one with the US Navy stamping appeals to me (I was Army but my Dad was a Navy officer during WWII).  Would I buy one?  Probably not.  Maybe.  I don't know.

VG,
As to when they will become available, that is anyone's guess.  You might try giving Gary Germaine at call at USFA and see if he has any answers for you.

[RRio]

Personaly I think it would be a mistake for them to release the 1910 and 1911. First of all the market is saturated with 1911's right now, everyone and their brother makes one.

Now, I would love to own a USFA 1911, but with the availability of good government models and the SW at far less money, I would not be buying one of them.  I feel that USFA has way overpriced their models.

Those two quotes pretty much cover my opinion of USFA getting into the 1911 race.
IMHO, it would have been a better proposition to have come out with an accurate reproduction of the Remington O/U derringer.
Everybody I know that is involved in CAS, wants one. They would not be that hard to manufacture with the equipment USFA has.

[CW Price Texas Ranger]

One last thought  One can not own enough 1911's (7 so far) and after USFA releases them, one will pop up on the used market at a good price.  Well I would just have to buy it to make my numbers nice and even.  Owning an odd number of 1911's is like a day without sunshine, or something like that.  After #8 gets in my posession, I will have to think up a new reason to keep adding to my collection.  One can cleary see the USFA is missing.
SW
Colt
Firestom
Union Switch and Signal
Springfield
Rock Island
Thompson 

[Capt. John Fitzgerald]

Well, CW, having an even number of 1911's - you mention eight - probably would give you a degree of satisfaction.  Even numbers are so comforting.  On the other hand, 1911 is, in and of itself, an odd number, so you might want to go for nine just so they match up, odd number for odd number.  Should you still find the odd number unsettling, you can always get another, just to even the number up again.  Personally, I think that the best thing to do would be to go for eleven.  Eleven 1911's - has a nice balance to it. 

[CW Price Texas Ranger]

I like that.  11 - 11's!  That shall be my new goal.  Now i just need some money to make all of that happen and some thought to which I need next.  Note I said need, not want!  When looking at the Union Switch and Signal 1911, I have been informed that wartime production did not properly hardened the slide to get them out the door ASAP, so based upon that and the value of a true USS with all of the correct parts, it does not get shot by me at all.  So that reduces the number available at any one time to and even number. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

I think you guys are missing the point as to what type of guns these are.  They are not "run of the mill" 1911 clones of current offerings, rather they are historic reproductions with the carbonia blued finish, polished to old time standards and finished off with nitre blued small parts just like they would have if they came off the production line in the 1910s.  To compare it to a current S&W or even a Kimber is like comparing a Ruger Blackhawk to a US Firearms Pre-War SAA as they are two different guns with two different customer bases in mind.  I heard this argument about 12 years ago when everyone put down US Patent Firearms saying that they won't sell well because they were not Colt SAAs.  I cite history as my evidence. The funny hammer and small safety are supposed to be that way since that is the way they were originally made.  There are many of us that would like to have a 1910 or 1911 accurate replica because the originals are too expensive and you might not want to shoot it anyway.  Just like Colt's WWI and WWII 1911s (A1) there is a market for shooters and collectors that want to feel what it is like to shoot the real McCoy. Re-enactors will love them eventhough the price is highier than a cheaper alternative that is not as historically correct.  I want one of each.

[RRio]

Virginia Gentleman,
I understand your point, and think it is cool to be able to get an accurate historic reproduction of a particular gun.
It's just, I have never been able to get next to a 1911, believe me I have tried. They have never been as dependable for me as a SAA.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I just have a hard time getting excited over a 1911. I would much rather see them come out with a Remington O/U derringer.

[Jax Orebetter]

On the other hand, 1911 is, in and of itself, an odd number, so you might want to go for nine just so they match up, odd number for odd number. 

Not if you add them together. 1+9+1+1= even # 12. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Rawhide Rio:

I agree, any wheelgun is going to be more reliable on average than any "jammomatic", but the 1911 is the king of big bore autos with a reputation that is proven on the battlefield from The Punative Expedition in  Mexico to Desert Storm.  In keeping with reproducing historically accurate arms, USFA would have a winner on its hands with the 1911 crowd.  For the CAS crowd, they should make a nice derringer and a nice shot gun or two for that market.  I have also heard great things about their lightning rifles.  Anyone have one of these yet?

[LazyK Pejay]

While flying in Nam I went through a number of pistols and finally settled on an old 1911A1 given to me by the armory Gunney. It was pretty tight for an old gun and served me faithfully. When the Coprs pulled out in 1971 they were collected and chopped up (crushed and chopped actually, so they said); makes ya kinda want to weep!

LazyK Pejay

[RRio]

While flying in Nam I went through a number of pistols and finally settled on an old 1911A1 given to me by the armory Gunney. It was pretty tight for an old gun and served me faithfully. When the Coprs pulled out in 1971 they were collected and chopped up (crushed and chopped actually, so they said); makes ya kinda want to weep!

LazyK Pejay

I had the opposite experiance as a member of the "Landing Party" aboard the USS Okinawa during our Viet Nam cruise ('72-'73). The first 1911 I was issued was a total piece of crap. If you could get it to shoot, you wouldn't be able to hit anything with it. The second one issued to me was not a whole lot better.
I guess the Navy traumatized me with 1911s. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Rawhide Rio:

By the time Vietnam rolled around,  many of the 1911 A1s from WWII and Korea were used and abused and then refurbished so many times that they became unreliable.  I too would be leery of a 1911 if it wasn't a reliable example and the s___ hit the fan and I needed it.  Some of the armorers in the service at the time were told to overlook some defects when fixing guns to be put back into service and it was not limited to 1911s.  M-16s right out of the box early on had significant reliablity problems.  After market contract magazines and small spare parts were sometimes sub-standard and made the 1911 look bad.  Most of these problems were worked out in the late 1970s and early 1980s, just in time to phase out the 1911 in favor of the Berretta M9.  Otherwise, modern, recent make 1911s made by good companies are very reliable in my experience.

[St. George]

Actually - by the time Vietnam was 'beginning' - we had sizeable numbers of unissued Service pistols still in the inventory.
It wasn't uncommon at all to see 'new' WWII M1911A1's and rebuilt M1911's being shipped in to combat units.

The Quality Assurance Program that the military contracted with Colt in the 1960's provided many brand-new-off-the commercial-line parts for the system to support a rapidly exanding military.
You see them as parkerized commercial parts from the 1960's-built Government Models - not to be confused with later offerings from surplus dealers long after the military contract with Colt expired.

Rebuild standards were then as now - high - and no corners were cut for weapons going into issue.
Any weapon undergoing a rebuild is marked as such on the frame - usually a series of letters that indicate the location of the Depot and a date.
I have never seen more than two rebuild marks on any of the US-issue weapons I encountered in over three decades spent with them and I owned one - a WWI(1917)-issue - rebuilt in 1926 to M1911A1 standard and rebuilt for Viet Nam with a S&W Chrome-lined barrel and a 1960's-era Colt Commercial slide as described above.
'That' piece had seen some sights in its long career.

The only 'loose' guns were those that had been 'squad-cleaned' over time and their parts freely mixed.
They'd shoot - which was always a plus - but they also developed the reputation for being poorly-fitted at the time of manufacture - when that wasn't the case at all.
And original weapon - possessing it's own original-to-it parts will really shoot well.
And - the action will have a good 'feel' and 'snap' to it - as does a brand-new one of today.

As an aside - the M16 'problems' were due largely to the insisted-upon use of Ball powder - when flake was best for the smaller cartridge case.
We had tons and tons of Ball Powder and the military wanted to be able to get their money's worth.

We did - in Spades - when you figure the vast amounts of 'boo-coo 7.62' we'd expend.

Increased weapons cleaning training and a chrome-lined barrel and chamber eliminated the problems encountered - along with the creation of a butt-trap for cleaning accessories.

But back to the Government Model as built by Colt and it's authorized military contractors.

A 'real' Government Model is a Colt - and anything else is a clone.
A 'real' Service Pistol was made - in WWI - by Colt, Springfield Armory (Uncle Sam's 'real' Springfield Armory), and Remington UMC.
In WWII - again, Colt, Remington-Rand, Union Switch and Signal, Ithaca  and of course - the 800 that were made by Singer.

Here's where the 'problems' arise.
There are a finite number of these 'real' ones available for purchase.

After the JSSAP Boards ended in 1988 - the M9 was the selected Service Pistol and the older M1911's and M1911A1's were directed to be turned in.
Some - like many of the M1911's - were worn out - the steel in the receiver being 'softer' than their WWII counterparts - and they were scrapped - as were others that were deemed too costly for rebuild.
The rebuildable ones were and went into storage - where they'll most likely 'never' emerge.

Government-sponsored 'Civilian Sales' of these weapons ended with the 'Gun Control Act of 1968' so that acted as another stopper in the flow of quality 'Ex-GI' pistols.

After that - they developed a collector's interest that is still climbing.
In 1966 - a Remington-Rand M1911A1 would sell for $35.
In 1974 - a Colt M1911A1 sold for $145.
Today - that same Remington-Rand goes for $1295 and the Colt for $1650.
A pre-series'70  'commercial' Colt Government Model - was priced at $110 in 1969-'70.
Today - a clean one'll run between $800-$1000.

These are the collector's prices seen - and those guns rise a bit in value every year as their numbers decrease.

Clones abound - but they're never going to have the same cachet of attached value to them.
"Original Finish' means absolutely nothing when 'that' finish was applied a month ago.

Colt recently released a 'new' M1911.
With the 'right' Diamond-checkered grips - it looks 'good'.
Add a two-tone magazine and it'll 'be' what you're looking for if you're more of a purist - or if you want some value to remain should you ever sell it.

Shooting period-original M1911's can be done - but before doing so - look for any cracks in the frame and any 'ovalled-out' holes - and be sure to use new springs.
The steel's getting 'tired', so remember that and act accordingly.

Scouts Out!


PS - the 'problem' with the slide of the US&S pistol was discovered by Field service in 1943 and they were deemed to be too soft and the strengthening billets at the corners of the ejection port weren't being maintained.
The problem was corrected and no further difficulties were encountered.
Slides were difficult machining operations and all manufacturers encountered problems that they had to overcome.
The Ordnance Department reported that US&S pistols rated special commendation for fit, finish and parts interchangeability.

[Virginia Gentleman]

I have an original 1911-A1 Remington Rand that I have shot with new springs, a  shock buff installed, new magazines and my light handloads using a lead round nose bullet to keep wear and tear to a minimum on the gun.  I liked shooting it very much, but didn't want to make it wear so I purchased a modern replacement,  a Springfield Armory 1911-A1 GI WWII parkerized gun that has the same look and feel with none of the worry.

[St. George]

If you 'just' use new springs and Service Ball loads - you can enjoy that piece for a long, long time.

Using the lighter load and the shock-buff make for a very enjoyable piece to shoot.

Look for a spare barrel at one of the gun shows and keep your original set aside.
You can find a chrome-lined GI-issue Barrel very reasonably.
They were  made by S&W and marked with both that and 'MP' on the lug and feature a hard-chromed chamber and bore - making for both easy cleaning and amazing durability - and that's for shooting jacket Ball.
Imagine how it'll handle lead...

If you want to know more about that Remington-Rand - send me a PM with the serial number and I'll tell where it 'initially' was shipped to.

Scouts Out!

[Virginia Gentleman]

St. George:

I was thinking that I did want to save the original barrel and what I ended up doing was buying a chrome lined barrel at the last gun show to do just that.  I was told they are drop in and that it would shoot better than the original barrel.  Thanks for the insight.

[St. George]

Thanks to their simplicity - pretty much 'everything' in a Service pistol is interchangeable.
Some 'aftermarket guns may require a tweak, though.

A spare barrel's always a good idea, and as I said - those GI-Issue chrome lined ones are tough barrels.
They were made to alleviate the associated stresses found in heavily moist areas and to handle full-patch, jacketed Ball and they do so quite well.

Remington Rand 'used' to be considered a run-of-the-mill .45 - but that was never the case.
They got that appelation because they were the most commonly-seen of the GI Service Pistols and with good reason - they were the largest producer of them.

During their production - Remington Rand continually improved not only their product, but the methods of its manufacture - winning several 'E' Awards (for 'Excellence') during WWII.
They continued to produce a high-quality pistol throughout their production span.

If someone's looking for a 'good'  GI .45 - they can't go wrong with one - though the others are a little harder to locate and they're priced accordingly.
Plus - thanks to the high number produced - chances of finding a Remington Rand are higher.
Changing over the springs is really all anyone needs to do for any Service Pistol, since the originals are a bit long in the tooth and are somewhat tired.

Like I'd offered - I can give you the contract number and initial point of shipping, should you think you'd like it.
After that - your guess is as good as mine once the weapon got into the system and would continue its service until the late '80's.

Scouts Out!