Clone "build" types

sack peterson · June 12, 2012, 07:36:39 PM

This is a great new section that you fellows put together. Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds. My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta
Taurus
STI

Forty Rod · June 12, 2012, 07:38:25 PM

AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.

sack peterson · June 12, 2012, 07:41:20 PM

First AWA is an Armi San Marco build, second is a Pietta build.

Hoof Hearted · June 13, 2012, 09:35:20 PM

Quote from: sack peterson on June 12, 2012, 07:36:39 PM
This is a great new section that you fellows put together. Its fodder for great discussions.

I was thinking, I believe I have identified all the clone builds. My list is as follows, in rough chronological order:

Great Western
JPSauer
Geroco / Herbert Schmidt centerfire
Jager
Uberti
Armi San Marco
Weirauch
Ruger
USFA
Pietta

Sack

I think you have this list pretty close to "right on the money"

HH

pghrich · June 20, 2012, 05:22:36 PM

Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich

Hoof Hearted · June 20, 2012, 06:17:56 PM

Quote from: pghrich on June 20, 2012, 05:22:36 PM
Hawes western marshal, i know they are not made anymore but there are plenty out there, i have one myself in 357 great trigger recessed cylinders nice grips, pghrich

I believe the Hawes is/was German built. Sauer maybe?
Hopefully Sack will see this and chime in...........

sack peterson · June 20, 2012, 07:00:08 PM

Exactly. Hawes is a JP Sauer build. That gun was an enormous success over the course of 20 years.

Gen Lew Wallace · June 27, 2012, 02:35:26 PM

Didn't Taurus make a model called "Gaucho"?

sack peterson · June 28, 2012, 05:48:34 AM

You're right! I'm editing to add that.

Long Johns Wolf · June 28, 2012, 06:38:54 AM

Some more SAA clone makers:
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf

Hoof Hearted · June 28, 2012, 07:32:09 AM

Beretta is Uberti and should be added as:

Uberti/Beretta

Chaparral did produce a SAA

STI in Texas also did produce a SAA

Long John,

Could you please provide some links or other info regarding:
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien

Regards, HH

Quote from: Long Johns Wolf on June 28, 2012, 06:38:54 AM
Some more SAA clone makers:
Beretta
Chaparral Arms
Great Gun s.r.o., Tvrdonice, Tschechien
STI International
Long Johns Wolf

Long Johns Wolf · June 28, 2012, 08:17:34 AM

Here we go: www.greatgun.eu
They do mostly lever action rifles of Henry, Henry Transitional, Win 73 and 92 pattern, but irregularly produce small batches of SAAs (Colt 1873 pattern) as well. Been there last year, saw the pistols (and the rifles). High end quality stuff.
Long Johns Wolf

sack peterson · June 28, 2012, 10:18:52 AM

I overlooked STI. I'll add that.

My suspicion is that Chapparal's is / was a private label for an Italian mfgd model we are already familiar with. Next, we could do a list of private labels themselves.

You'd have to tell me more about the other one.

Old Doc · June 29, 2012, 10:16:05 PM

Quote from: Forty Rod on June 12, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
AWA and the new AWA USA...two different companies.

Funny, they have the same phone number.

Coffinmaker · July 18, 2012, 04:24:43 PM

AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies. AWA went bust following several law suits. Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility. AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based. Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker

Hoof Hearted · July 18, 2012, 05:04:53 PM

Quote from: Coffinmaker on July 18, 2012, 04:24:43 PM
AWA and the "new" AWA USA are/were two separate companies. AWA went bust following several law suits. Richard Simpson started AWA USA a bit later but I believe in the same facility. AWA USA guns are Not, to my knowledge, Pietta based. Someone else was making his frames.
I haven't been able to contact them for some time ans don't know if AWA USA is still in business.

Coffinmaker

These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing

HH

Old Doc · July 18, 2012, 05:38:13 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing

HH

My memory of all this is kind of hazy but at some point I believe AWA actually bought Armi San Marco. I know there was a big flap over production problems on the pump action rifle.

Old Doc · July 18, 2012, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on July 18, 2012, 05:04:53 PM
These were originally ASM built clones. I'm not real sure what AWA USA did after the "decline" of ASM but the "PEACEKEEPER" moniker on the barrel (one of their models) had a lot to do with their undoing

HH

Someone forgot that Colt once made a .357 revolver named the "Peacekeeper" and hence had rights to the name. That and the fact that those black plastic grips with the horse on them looked just a little too much like Colts' grip. Neither one of those might have been an issue if the gun did not look quality-wise more like a 2nd generation Colt, than the Colt of the period did.

Hoof Hearted · July 18, 2012, 07:18:34 PM

I guess this is as good a place as any to DISCUSS this ( I emphasized the word discuss here 'cause I don't want to have to deal with any attacks or insults between forum members or towards vendors over this).........

What Old Doc has said is correct and adds to what I posted. Except.........I don't think AWA bought ASM. I know a lot of the history about ASM through the period that Dave Anderson was having them make parts for his AFF "conversions", then ASM started building those conversions and selling them to CVA, Cimarron and others........Of course there were also issues with ASM and their quailty control at EMF eventually adding to or leading to Walt there going to the Pietta and them AWA using ASM to produce their line of SAA Clones. The way I understand it was AWA had the Colt Copyright infringemant issues (as metioned by myself and Old Doc above) and then made the unfortunate decision to sell the Lightning Magazine Rifle. The rest is history, so to speak!

Kudos really should go out to Boyd Davis at EMF for his YEARS of modifications to the ASM clone in order to make it more "Colt like". If it wasn't for ASM's poor quality control (I have been told that MANY, MANY pistols did not meet inspection at EMF and were purportedly remarked and sold to other companies) we could have still had a source for inexpensive parts that were 100% interchangeable with Colts

Jamie · July 18, 2012, 07:39:32 PM

Obviously this is a loaded question, uh, so to speak

but I know where there's a "new" ASM Bisley 5.5 " barrel in 44-40 for $365. Am I crazy to even consider it? Colors are good, bluing looks good, but the grip fit is atrocious. Gaps everywhere. It was purchased by a nearby gunshop with a bunch of ASM and Uberti single action partial guns. Some lacked backstraps, some lacked cylinders, and then again there were cylindered frames that lacked barrels. For about $300 you might be able to make one out of two, but with New York registration laws, I'm standing off of that I think. Anyway, the Bisley repo is complete. Any thoughts? If it isn't timed well, etc. what would a good tune up be, and how much of a rat hole would I be throwing my money down. Again, any thoughts would be appreciated. I'd like a 44-40 to go with my '73.
Jamie