From Italy, about the Springfield-repaired Spencer...

[Scully fan]

Hello Gents,
thanks so much to anyone who might help about this:

I'm about to get a Mod. 1860 carbine, certainly post-CW refurbished by Springfield Armory.
As specified by Marcot's book, it has:

*  22" barrel, relined to 56-50 and with 3 groves,
*  much rounded hammer's "lip" and edges of the top opening,
*  obliterated markings on top of receiver, surely by the refinishing process,
*  a good stock and foreend, seemingly "fresh".

But: s/n is missing, wich I find somehow odd (usually it is stamped more deeply than other markings),
and a second sling ring is added to the barrel band (in Marcot's book, this sub-variant is shown having only the stock ring).
Might it be presumably a true period-original, Springfield-repaired gun ? I believe so, cannot know what things may intervene along a gun's life in those days...

thanks !!!!!

[Two Flints]

Photos of your Spencer would be great to see

[Scully fan]

Thanks Two Flints,

unfortunately it's not mine yet, and I'd be willing even more to buy it if I'd be sure it is 100% genuine...  wich thing I believe, just that missing s/n and added sling ring to the forward band..,
the spot where the s/n was, is anyway perfect as to metal-wood fit and uniformity of patina (a very slight remains of casecolors).

It should be OK,  just those small differences from what shown in Marcot's book..., but perhaps this does not detract at all.

[Two Flints]

According to the Marcot book . . . Model 1860 Civil War Spencer carbines repaired at Springfield between 1866 and 1874 . . . the Stabler Magzine cut-off device was installed on all arms . . . ESA Cartouche was most common on 1860 models . . .  Do you see a cartouche?

Two Flints

[Scully fan]

There is the Stabler cut-off, yes.
No cartouches at all on stock wood.  This could be not a wrong thing,  i.e. a possible civilian owner could have replaced woods again or have them refreshed...
The only "odd" detail seems be the missing s/n.  The spot where usually is the s/n, seems perfect as uniformity; wood-to-metal fit is OK, and the absence of markings on receiver's top is also normal as explained by Marcot.
Just that missing s/n...

[Two Flints]

Have you checked under the forearm wood, on the underside of the barrel for the serial #, as it may have been repeated there, if the barrel is original to the receiver?

Two Flints

[Scully fan]

Not done yet,  Two Flints.

Shall try to do this next time when I'll go to gunshop. Just a not pleasant time now as for work and family, and I need a whole afternoon and evening to go seeing the gun.
But I shall go next week, possibly.

Later,  Scully fan.

[badlands]

Sounds like it could be Belgian, maybe??  Other things considered, the serial # makes me lean that way.

[Scully fan]

Hello Badlands,

It's not Belgian-made.  Those carbines are marked with symbols on barrel and left side of receiver, plus being serial numbered on breechblock and beneath the barrel itself.
Also, barrels are 20" long and with 6 grooves, "mine" is 22" and 3 grooves.

Should most certainly be a Springfield-repaired sample of the Mod. 1860, who knows why s/n is missing. Maybe, a further polishing before the casehardening ?

[Herbert]

The missing serial number would not be a deal breaker with me,some of these carbines were heavly polished before being re casshardened(though I have never seen the serial number polished out),all the other details are right except for no cartouche,wich could be a replacment stock,this only drops the price slitly.The carbines with no front band swivel are much more common the the ones with the swivel

[Scully fan]

Hi Herbert,
This is my opinion, too.  Just I was a bit "worried" (?) about the missing s/n, the missing cartouches are explainable, and as for the added front swivel it may have been a civilian addition in post-war years, maybe.

[WCR]

Springfield Armory added a 2nd sling swivel, with a gap in the sling bar, as a stacking swivel on the Model 1873 Trapdoor rifles.
I have a Burnside Spencer that was altered at SA and the serial number was stamped on the barrel by SA, as well as being on the action as stamped by Burnside.
My rifle has an "ESA" cartouche, which is very dim. Any amount of refinishing at all would remove the cartouche. Try taking some white chalk and rubbing the wood in the area where the cartouche should be and see if anything shows up.
If the action and magazine tube all function well, and you like the price, then I would take it home. No one will ever know all the many variants on rifles and carbines that came from the SA.
Richard A. Hosmer is the author of a great book, "The .58- and .50- Caliber Rifles & Carbines of the Springfield Armory 1865-1872" It's less than $20 on Amazon or direct from the author.
WCR

[Scully fan]

Hi WCR,
thanks for the message.  In effect price seems fair and gun is nice indeed, all seem original 100%...

My great wish would be a not-altered Burnside or Spencer Mod. '65, with that shorter barrel and  the markings showing nicely on the top areas...so much is already such a finding here in Italy and very near home, so after a further close looking I believe I'll block it aside and give the owner a first sum.

[badlands]

I don't see how you can go wrong, if it's a good deal, grab it before someone else does.

[Herbert]

Hi WCR,
thanks for the message.  In effect price seems fair and gun is nice indeed, all seem original 100%...

My great wish would be a not-altered Burnside or Spencer Mod. '65, with that shorter barrel and  the markings showing nicely on the top areas...so much is already such a finding here in Italy and very near home, so after a further close looking I believe I'll block it aside and give the owner a first sum.

The Springfield converted carbines bring a higher price than the 1865 and are less common,so trading one for a 1865 carbine woulf be no trouble should you find one.To me the extra 2 inches of barrel and the more rounded reciver is mor pleasing to my eye

[Arizona Trooper]

Badlands, It could well be a Franco-Prussian War import. Most of the rebuilt Spencer carbines from Springfield sat around armories in the US since they were "Second Class" and would only be issued to militia or scouts. When the war broke out in Europe Springfield unloaded most everything they could get their hands on in "surplus sales". Technically, the US was neutral, but a lot of US arms brokers were not, and they bought up everything that would shoot and snuck it out to France while customs inspectors quietly looked the other way. When France lost, the German states found themselves in possession of lot of never issued US arms. They sold them all over Europe and even back to the US. Back in the 1980s, Val Forget of Navy Arms, found an unopened case of Smith carbines in a German Armory on one of his trips. I'm sure there are more out there.

Good luck with your Spencer! Do look under the forestock for a serial number. Also, some early Spencers have the number stamped in the buttstock wood under the buttplate, or the buttplate iteself. That's mostly for rifles, but it's worth a look.   

[Scully fan]

Hi Trooper,
thanks for these tips.  This possibility I had tought too, after reading so on Marcot's book.
As an instance, among some other Western-related firearms I do have an original Springfield "Trapdoor" Mod. 1866 rifle (the so-called 2nd Allin Conversion), in nice condition indeed both externally and actionwise, it could very well have seen some combat here in Europe,
they sent overseas thousands of these guns.  That Spencer carbine, maybe, did the same.

Shall go to gunshop next week and ask to see under the forewood, but right now I'm almost 100% willing to buy it.
Later, Scully fan.

[Two Flints]

Scully Fan,

Sent you a Personal Message with questions.  Still waiting for a reply.  We Calabrians (Catanzaro) like to get answers to our questions   Please reply one way or the other to my Email address - fsgrand2@fairpoint.net

Thank you,

Two Flints