Pyrodex in rough, pitted barrels

w44wcf · May 06, 2012, 06:12:29 AM

For those of you that may have a rifle with a bore that is pitted / rough and have found that it does not shoot b.p. cartridges accurately for a number of rounds, you may want to try Pyrodex.

I have an original '73 .44 W.C.F. made in 1882, that has a somewhat rough, pitted barrel. With black powder, it shoots great........for about 10-12 rounds, then the accuracy starts falling off quickly as fouling accumualtes in those recesses.

Pyrodex to the rescue! It worked great in that '73.....a full box of 50 rounds could be fired with good accuracy from start to finish.

I also tried 777 but, in that rifle, it produced throat leading whereas Pyrodex did not.

Knowing the issue of oxidation if not cleaned after firing, I used a 50/50 mix of white vinegar & water to clean and never had an issue with rust. (Sometimes though, I just fired several rounds loaded with that new fangled stuff and then cleaned with good ole' Hoppes and that worked fine.)

w44wcf

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · May 06, 2012, 10:33:50 AM

I came to the same conclussion with my old Swedish rolling block in 12.11 X 44R. The barrels on the m67's were taken from the Wredes 1860 ML minie rifles, using the same HB minie bullet. Even in relatively good shape, the soot builds up too fast to shoot a group. Pyrodex at least lets me get some results. Of course The old Girl still has to be cleaned thoroughly.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438612

Mine doesn't look like the converted Wredes shown above , but there is a short version of part of the Scandinavian rolling block story.

P.S; I haven't used the smokeless trick on a 150 year old gun!

john boy · May 06, 2012, 03:58:08 PM

Why does Pyrodex work in a pitted bore & BP doesn't? Interesting to learn this but I'm scratching my head as to why.
Thanks kindly

Sir Charles deMouton-Black · May 06, 2012, 05:49:36 PM

Quote from: john boy on May 06, 2012, 03:58:08 PM
Why does Pyrodex work in a pitted bore & BP doesn't? Interesting to learn this but I'm scratching my head as to why.
Thanks kindly

My non-expert theory is that the fouling doesn't build up the same as BP.

Dick Dastardly · May 06, 2012, 06:01:23 PM

Pyrodex don't build up fouling same as Holy Black, cuz it ain't black powder. It's a sub, kiss your sister, black powder wanna be. Pyrodex is allowed in SASS matches cuz it smokes some and some pards can't have genuine powder. It's NOT black powder. Get over it. Pyrodex is a substitute for black powder. It's NOT a replacement for black powder, it's a SUBSTITUTE for black powder.

Got that?

Now as for pitted barrels and black powder fouling. The fouling can be awful. In order to keep the fouling to the minimum, use LOTS OF LUBE. Make that read "LOTS OF LUBE". For those of you in Rio Linda, that means LOTS OF LUBE!!

On pitted bores, more frequent cleaning may be indicated. Treat those old bores to some moosemilk and a boresnake as needed. Enjoy shooting original guns and know that that they may have a hard working history without enough love.

DD-MDA

Fairshake · May 07, 2012, 09:43:49 AM

I respect W44Wcf very much and consider him a good friend but I myself will never use a sub for anything other than maybe starting a fire.
The guns with bad bores may have the barrell relined .
My own experience with Pyrodex has been terrible. I sent a new TTN shotgun to the gunsmith that they told me to for repair of rough chambers. I advised him that I shot only BP ammo and that I wanted the gun tested with such before it's return to me. If it would not shuck the empty cases, then it was not a good gun for SASS matches.
He advised that he had a friend who shot BP in SASS and he would get the ammo from him. Well, because every one who shoots the subs in BP only classes he figured it all the same. My gun took 5 days to get back to me and this is how it arrived .

Subs only produce smoke and that is but one feature of the real black powder.
Real BP sounds different, burns different, produces fire and sparks from the barrel. It's my feelings that if a person wants to shoot the subs then that is their choice and they should be allowed to do so. I do however believe that they should have to shoot in a seperate class as they are only shooting smokeless powder that has been changed to smoke and nothing else. It's not correct for a sub shooter to be in the BP classes. The standard was set by people who don't shoot real BP and know nothing about it. They can see the smoke and say that's good enough. Take Care and clean the same day if using Pyrodex.

w44wcf · May 10, 2012, 08:52:15 AM

Quote from: john boy on May 06, 2012, 03:58:08 PM
Why does Pyrodex work in a pitted bore & BP doesn't? Interesting to learn this but I'm scratching my head as to why.
Thanks kindly

JB,
The b.p. fouling gets trapped in the recesses and then has a good foundation to build on. Pyrodex, on the other hand doesn't generate the fouling that b.p. does. I've worked a little bit with duplex loads in that rifle and they worked well.

Quote from: Dick Dastardly on May 06, 2012, 06:01:23 PM
Pyrodex don't build up fouling same as Holy Black, cuz it ain't black powder. It's a sub, kiss your sister, black powder wanna be........ It's NOT black powder. Get over it. Pyrodex is a substitute for black powder. It's NOT a replacement for black powder, it's a SUBSTITUTE for black powder. Got that? ............................

DD-MDA

DD,
Yup...got that! I did try the Mav D bullet but that barrel did not cooperate. I did not try it with Swiss powder though so I need to do that. Perhaps the additional lube and moist burning powder combination just might be the b.p. answer.

Regarding Pyrodex, thankfully, the stuff just plain works in that barrel. It may not be black powder but it loads like black powder and smells like black powder.......well, just a little bit anyway......

Fairshake,
Ii thought about relining the barrel but decided against it since it is an original '73 and I want to keep it that way. It shoots the new fangled nitro stuff very well. I will say that it is the only rifle I use Pyrodex in (the rest get b.p.). It gets cleaned thoroughly the same day. Several years ago, there was a 300 yard steel shoot on a gong target. The ole' 73 / Pyrodex / 427098 combination did pretty darn well for multiple shots on that distant target....something I was not be able to do with straight b.p. in that rifle.

w44wcf

Fairshake · May 11, 2012, 09:35:04 AM

John, I may have worded my posting incorrectly. I will never question anything you post as I believe you are one of the most knowledgeable persons on firing BP with the 44WCF.
My posting was meant to educate the people who have never fired either powder and not know about the hazards of Pyrodex and what it may do to a gun. I in no way meant to say anything about what you posted or your choice as we are all free because of where we live and those who went before us. Your friend Fairshake