Question for the camp - 44-40 hard extraction SOLVED!

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Question for the camp.  I was plinking with the 44-40 Spencer today, and it started having hard extraction with fired cases.  The load was 7.0 grains of WW231 with a Hornady cast 200 grain bullet.  By the end of the 50 round box, I had to whack the lever all the way open with my palm.  The only variable are that these were loaded in some dingy tarnished ex-PBP loaded brass, and I did not clean the carbine after the last range session.  I have a feeling that it is a combination of dry dirty chamber and nasty brass.  Anyone else have an issue like this before???  I know with the 44-40 SPencer you have to work the lever smartly, but this was ridiculous considering 44-40 is tapered brass!  Another factor is that these reloads are done with LEE dies.  I have a set of RCBS that I will try.

[Jan Buchwald]

Had that kind of troubles with an Enfield snider (blackpowder), in an attempt to find a load that didn't shake my teeth loose. Too much room left in the case, the powder didn't fill it.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I've been using the load in 1873 Colt clones and in a Century Ltd, with no problems.  It is supposed to be safe for 1873 actions.  It is a very low case volume loading, though, compared to the other load I have used of 15 grains 2400.  Case volume is something to consider.

[Trailrider]

Question for the camp.  I was plinking with the 44-40 Spencer today, and it started having hard extraction with fired cases.  The load was 7.0 grains of WW231 with a Hornady cast 200 grain bullet.  By the end of the 50 round box, I had to whack the lever all the way open with my palm.  The only variable are that these were loaded in some dingy tarnished ex-PBP loaded brass, and I did not clean the carbine after the last range session.  I have a feeling that it is a combination of dry dirty chamber and nasty brass.  Anyone else have an issue like this before???  I know with the 44-40 SPencer you have to work the lever smartly, but this was ridiculous considering 44-40 is tapered brass!  Another factor is that these reloads are done with LEE dies.  I have a set of RCBS that I will try.

Definitely sounds like crud in the chamber causing the brass to adhere to the chamber walls. Have you tried an equal number of rounds with new brass? I prefer Winchester brass when I can get it. If the brass is quite soft, and the chamber real dirty, it could cause the brass to adhere to the walls.  You might want to cut back to 6.5 gr W231 and see what happens. Or you might want to try 7.3 - 8.0 gr Hodgdon's UNIVERSAL.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Good point.  I think I may switch to the 15 grains of 2400, as it is a different burn rate and fills the case better, and that may help.  Also I should get off my butt and get some new walnut media to polish my brass.  Mine is flat worn out!

[Herbert]

If the brass has been used a lot in another gun the base may have expanded to a biger chamber size,FLS will not fix this.I have had this problem using Starline brass in my originan Spencer,after a few firings in the original,then tryed in my Armi Sports Spencer they will be very hard to extract,this is because the base has expanded to the slitly larger original Spencer chamber size,new cases will most likly fix your problem

[Tuolumne Lawman]

That is also a good point, Herbert.  Most of this brass was used with max Pyrodex and max Triple 7 loads, shot in a myriad of different guns.  I'll try the new Remington brass I got, and see how that works.

[12 th Illinois]

Good to see you back with the Spencer family Bernie. Looks like my feeding problems are over. a local gunsmith made new extractors for Steve and my 45 Schofields. For blanks the 45 Casull feeds smooth as glass. I loaded a few live rounds, and they work fine too. The strange part was, although we both have Armi-Sport 45 Schofields, the extractors were different. When you hold them side by side, you can see the difference without measuring.

[Two Flints]

Hi 12th Illinois,

Why not share the info on your new .45 Schofield extractors . . . how are they different from the one(s) that came with your Spencer from Armi Sport?  Be nice to know what works for you.

Two Flints

[12 th Illinois]

Not 100% sure what he did, but think he just made them slightly longer to adjust the overall length of the cartridge.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Problem solved. It was the suspected culprits.

1) The chamber was REALLY dirty and had some light surface rust.  It even had some lead in it from shaved lead around case mouth  of reloaded ammo, apparently.  I realized that I actually had not cleaned it since I got it back from my pard last week, and it set in his safe for YEARS!. The chamber cleaned up perfect with some Ballistol and an over-sized brush.

2)  The ammo I shot in the prior range session (with no extraction problems) was actually Black Hills factory and some reloads with once fired brass that was used in smokeless loads.  The jamming box in question was well used with BP loads, pretty tarnished, and base below die was larger than the once fired smokeless brass.

End result, effortless ejection of brass with once fired Starline and Remington brass.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Further update:  I took some of the over-used BP cases that were tight in the Spencer (and also would not chamber in my EMF GWII with its tight cylinder) and used an RCBS sizing die, instead of the LEE die I was using. The rounds chambered and extracted slick and easy!  I think the base is smaller and the shoulder is farther from the case mouth on the RCBS dies.  Next time I reload rounds, I will load some with each and use a micrometer to check.

[Trailrider]

Further update:  I took some of the over-used BP cases that were tight in the Spencer (and also would not chamber in my EMF GWII with its tight cylinder) and used an RCBS sizing die, instead of the LEE die I was using. The rounds chambered and extracted slick and easy!  I think the base is smaller and the shoulder is farther from the case mouth on the RCBS dies.  Next time I reload rounds, I will load some with each and use a micrometer to check.

Although I've not used .44-40 in a repro Spencer, I do shoot primarily that cartridge for SASS, both in OMV's and several different repro rifles. I found that Winchester brass is far superior to Remington, and somewhat better than Starline.  I also use regular RCBS dies, and find the resized brass works in everything I've shot. Winchester brass is somewhat thinner than the others. This does NOT make it weaker, as the brass is probably slightly harder than the others. Harder brass equals stronger. I've fired most of my brass over 20 times and seldom lose any due to work-hardening, except where the case mouths have caught on the extractor cut in a Rossi M92, before I rounded the corners off...and those cases lost in the tall grass or in "no-pickup" matches.