Sharps 45/75 today

[Black River Smith]

I am bringing up this old topic that I originally posted (see link below) because I recently saw a similiar posting over on the Shiloh forum.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36225.msg463469.html#msg463469

I have created a two groove (GG) bullet that is 1.1" and ~392gr from a modified lee 500gr postell mould.

Since the original posting, I have figured the proper length for the follower, if a grease cookie (GC) and .3" of bullet exist in casing and have created the seating tool for a 2.9" OAL finish.  But now my issue is the groove distance from base of bullet.  If I follow the informations and insert only .3" of bullet in casing for a 2.9" OAL length then one groove is exposed for this modified bullet.  If I leave the GC out and insert all grooves the OAL is only 2.71 - 2.74.
Most of the reference documentation that I have list the OAL lengths for both GG and PP Sharps bullets at 2.9".

My question is: Does anyone have a picture of an original GG Sharps bullet, either just the bullet or of an actual mould?

Or does anyone have an original Sharps 2.1 GG bullet that they could measure the OAL?

[JimBob]

In Hoyem's book there is a sized picture of a Sharps .45-75-420 2.1 PP round.OAL measured with calipers is coming up 2.738 which leaves .638 of the bullet exposed.Some of your problem may be in using the Postell bullet,long nose.All the Sharp's rounds pictured are round or flat nose bullets.

[Ranch 13]

The closest you will get to the original grease groove bullet is the lyman 457124. It does shoot fairly well in most rifles.
If you're looking to the patched bullet load then you can either get the 420 gr slicks from Buffalo Arms, or order an adjustable mould from Old West, or Brooks in the original sharps design in a .442 diameter,set the lenght to 1.1 inches. then wrap with 9lb onion skin.
You can easily droptube 72 grs of 2f into a case and still be able to seat the wads and have about .1 of the bullet into the case.
You can get 75 grs in with a slowpour thru the tube and a little compression.

[JimBob]

Here's a thread with a picture of a PP mold.the GG would be very similiar in shape but I have found no pictures or other info on the Sharps GG bullet-

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1330531888/0

Here's another thread showing some tools that might be of interest-

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18015

Either one of those sites might be a place to seek the information you desire particularly the ASSRA one for what you are after.

[Ranch 13]

If you go here http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm and scroll down the page to the 451113 bullet that's what the original greaser looked like. Notice it does not have a driving band and was bore diameter. That bullet will lead horribly in a modern chamber but will work fine in the original paper patched chamber. Also note that it's profile is the same as the original patched bullet, with the simple addition of the lube grooves.

[JimBob]

If you go here http://www.three-peaks.net/bullet_molds.htm and scroll down the page to the 451113 bullet that's what the original greaser looked like. Notice it does not have a driving band and was bore diameter. That bullet will lead horribly in a modern chamber but will work fine in the original paper patched chamber. Also note that it's profile is the same as the original patched bullet, with the simple addition of the lube grooves.

He needs a measured drawing of that bullet in the 405 gr. to do what he wants to do,make a set of loading tools such as Sharps furnished with their rifles.They were caliber and load specific as far as the seating tool for the Sharps Factory loading.The follower seated the wad and grease cookie a specific depth for the bullet used.The bullet he's using when the wad and grease cookie are seated leaves a grease groove exposed.He needs a measurment for the OAL of the bullet and the distance from the base to the top of the grease grooves.

[Ranch 13]

Then he needs to get some of the lyman 457124 bullets. That is as close as he's going to get unless he finds someone with the original mould.
The "followers" were all the same length. The only difference in the loading tools were the size of the powder dippers.The bullet seaters were all the same for the cartridge. The bullets were not seated very deep in the case, that is made very clear from the reloading instructions in the sharps catalogs. That is also why the grooved bullets were at bore diameter instead of the groove diameter we use today.
The best thing he could do to get the exact copy of the original sharps tools would be to contact Orville Loomer. The easiest way to do that would be thru the Shiloh board. Another would be to contact powderburner either thru Shiloh board, cast bullets or handloads.com.

[JimBob]

The best thing he could do to get the exact copy of the original sharps tools would be to contact Orville Loomer. The easiest way to do that would be thru the Shiloh board. Another would be to contact powderburner either thru Shiloh board, cast bullets or handloads.com.

Yep,that's pretty much it.He asked the same questions a year ago in his orginal post and no one answered providing information about where to find someone with original tools to talk to.

[Black River Smith]

Thanks for all the comments and information.

JimBob the first measurements you gave are what I was looking far.  Most of my reference sources are centered around the PP bullet and everything lists the OAL as 2.9 for a 1.1 to 1.119" PP bullet.  But when I used the same logic with the 1.1" flat nose modified Lee bullet, it just did not work.  (ps - the modified bullet mould is now a nose pour so it is a flat nose.  You are correct the shape still is a little conish but it meet most of the specs).  I just did not see how they could get two GG into a length of 0.3".  Unless they did and that is why they used an additional cookie.

I have the standard Lyman's (457124 & 457125) & Lee's (385gr & 405gr) bullet moulds but what I am trying to do is reproduce the original shapes and sizes (like in the link to the original PP mould).  Then create copies of the original Sharps loading accessories.  I have most everything done like the follower; the grease cookie plates; PP mould; the PP bullet seater; the wad-cutters; primer; deprimer blocks.

But with this info it appears that I will have to make second 'shorter' (2.73") starter.

Also, Orville's info on the Shiloh site and info within the NCOWs club added to what I already had started.

I just which someone somewhere could come up with an original GG Sharps bullet or picture of.  I scanned the internet with no luck.

Thanks

[Ranch 13]

There are some pictures of the grooved bullets and moulds in Seller's Sharps book.

[Black River Smith]

Good to know,

That is one book I do not have, but want.  Just have not been able to get at a reasonable price.  I will eventually get a copy.

I did not know they existed.  If some else did, I guess I had hoped pictures could have been posted.    That is all my question was about and then the OAL measurement of the loaded cartridge.  That way I could make additional modification to the mould or understand why the differences and start with something other mould design.

All the original sharps mould I have seen on sale and listed on the websites have been PP, unfortunately no GG.  The PP and swage dies were relatively easy to create but not a GG.  Not for me, no lathe.

I will look harder for a copy of the Sellers book.

Thanks

[JimBob]

Here's the cheapest one I found so far-

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Sharps-Firearms-by-Frank-Sellers.cfm?gun_id=100241328

[Ranch 13]

Shiloh has or at least still had some on hand in January.
Sharps didn't really push the grooved bullets much and about the only ammo they sold in the grooved mostly went to military contracts, so it'ld be pretty safe to assume that those rounds would be the same as the govt issue in col.
It's not clear that they even sold the bullet seater for a grooved bullet.

[Black River Smith]

Thanks Ranch 13,

That is a historical fact that I was not aware of.  I figured since the 50/70 was GG and that Sharp's chambered 45/70 about 10 years after the Springfield 1873, that they would have produced a GG bullet for the general public.

But your information does correspond to what I see in the old catalogs.  That being, mail-order suppliers mainly carried or listed the PP bullets not the GG for Sharps reloading well into 1902.

Interesting!!!

JimBob, I passed your link on to my wife, for a fathers day idea.

Thanks again for all the input.

[Ranch 13]

The 45-70 was the standard 45caliber chambering in all the 45 caliber rifles except the midrange and creedmoor guns. If a customer wanted the longer cartridges in a sporting or business rifle, it cost extra to have the chamber lenghtened. They were doing that as early as 1876 according to the catalogs.