Were There Gypsies?

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Gypsies are still active in Germany. I believe their origins are in Hungary, but I'm not certain about it. Were there Gypsies in our time period? If so, can anyone please give me some details?

Thanks!

AnnieLee

[Ozark Tracker]

Annie,  When I was a kid, my grandma always warned my cousins and me about gypsies, at some time in her life she must have been warned in a very serious way, because she meant every word she told us, in the 50's the people she referred to as gyspies traveled in groups through out Oklahoma and Arkansas and Kansas, doing work, painting barns lots of odd jobs, but they had a bad reputation for stealing, in our area a call would go out when these people arrived warning to look out for them,  I once saw my granddad carry a shotgun out to greet them and send them on their way down the road, so I don't know about anywhere else but that was our gyspies.

[Capt. Hamp Cox]

Annie,

Short answer to your question is "Yes".  There's considerable info on this subject online.  A sample is below.

"Although there were two Romani transportees with Columbus on his second voyage in 1498, Roma began to reach the Americas in any numbers in the sixteenth century, shipped here to work as slave labor in the plantations. Others came to the United States at the end of the last century, fleeing slavery in Europe (Hancock, 1987; Nunes, 1996). However, as victims of discriminatory immigration policy beginning in 1883, they were turned away at Ellis Island, and even those who managed to come in across the Mexican or Canadian borders met anti-Gypsy laws, some of which were still on the books and being put into effect as recently as last year. No other ethnic minority in the 1990s in this country has been the target of repressive laws which named them specifically and forbade (or require a license for) them to establish homes or to work in different counties and states. No other ethnic minority has special police bureaus monitoring its movements or specialists compiling a computerized files of its names, addresses, and genealogies."   www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/mythandreality.htm

[Rev Willy Duncum]

To answer your question again, yes.  My grandmother also warned us about gypsys and what they would do.  I grew up in the late 50's and 60's in central Illinois on a farm and yes they came through mainly in the summers to paint outbuildings and barn roofs.  Some of that silver paint would wash off after the first rain... They painted everything that wasn't nailed down, including windows and anything else with overspray.

Where my deer buddies used to hunt in southern Illinois. They were run off a couple years ago because the gypsys there took over.  The locals warned it was dangerous to hunt anywhere around them and told us they couldn't/wouldn't touch them.

They have been around a long time. 

[Standpat Steve]

Howdy,

In the 1960's and 1970's, gypsies used to travel in the summer through the part of upstate New York I grew up in. They were famous for "resealing asphalt driveways" using used motor oil. It would wash away after the first good rain . . .

 

[Joyce (AnnieLee)]

Thanks, folks! I had no idea the gypsies were still so prevalent, nor that they were singled out in laws. Does anyone have insight to their activities in the late 1800's in America?

Thanks again,

AnnieLee

[El Peludo]

Miz Annie, try Google, for "Romani Tribe"; there you'll find a lot of info.

From what I can remember, the Romani, also colloquially known as "Gypsies", originated in the India/Pakistani border region.  They were disenfranchised and forced out of their native homelands many hundreds of years ago, and began a nomadic existence, as a sort of self contained society.  They are very closely tied to each other, and this loyalty and cohesion has caused them to be ostracised by most cultures that they come in contact with; they are different, and thus, not to be trusted.  Their travels took them in the general direction of europe, and over the centuries, they spread out across the entire western world.  They exist today, with much the same social and self contained cultural stucture that has carried them so far from their origins.  They do not integrate well with others, and retain their tight family and tribal loyalties above all other forms of society.

There was a series of programs on one of the educational channels about them, some time back, but I can't remember which one; it was, however, extremely interesting.

[Capt. Hamp Cox]

http://sciway3.net/clark/freemoors/roma.html

http://educate.si.edu/migrations/gyp/gypstart.html

[LazyK Pejay]

I grew up in UpState New York. In the 50's they would come through my town (Oakfield, NY) usually in  the summer. Parents would warn children and of course we wanted to see them. They did not stay long and over-nighted usually in a field north of town.

LazyK Pejay

[Camille Eonich]

We always got warned to stay away from the hippies because they would kidnap you but never gypsies. 

[Tensleep]

Gypsies were very much present in Texas in the late 1800's and early 1900's. They were horse and mule traders, usually having old, poor and diseased stock to trade. Most bands also had several very fast horses and showed up in most small towns for the fairs and rodeos where they entered the races that were held.

I have heard my grandfather and an older friend, Ben K Green talk of having dealings with the band that came through our town every year. My father has mentioned gypsies moving thru as late as the 1940s.

[Standpat Steve]

From the Wednesday, September 21, 2005 Los Angeles Times:

DOZENS HELD, SOUGHT IN THEFTS FROM CAR DEALERS

A group of self-described Gypsies used false identities and financial information to steal at least 113 vehicles from auto dealers, authorities said Tuesday.

About 25 people have been arrested and more than 60 others are being sought in the scheme, which ran from August 2004 to February 2005, said Det. Joe Mamone, an investigator with the Regional Auto Theft Task Force of Santa Clara County. Authorities said the vehicles had a total value of about $2.3 million.

[LazyK Pejay]

Yep, you could tell the Hippie Caravans; a long line of painted Volkswagon Minivans with flowers flying out the exhaust pipes

LazyK Pejay

[jiminy criquet]

Gypsies originate(d) from the area today known as Romania ...also better known as Transylvania (I wonder how much that has/had to do with they're being treated as 'outcasts'?)

Today they are known as 'Travelers' here in the USA, and they live in tight-knit closed communities, usually in the south ....I believe there's a large Gypsy/Traveler community somewhere in Florida...I forget where exactly.
Every once in a while you read about them being busted by one law enforcement agency or another for their various grifter tactics...'refinishing' driveways, etc.  A very closed society that marries among their own kind...if memory serves me they were in the spotlight not long ago for the practice of, uh, marrying off their young girls...too young.  Whatever.  Anyways, each year they load up in caravans and proceed to tour the United States refinishing driveways, painting curb numbers, etc., etc., etc.  Many of them actually live in quite opulent communities.  Have you ever gotten brochures on your door offering to paint your house number on your curb?  10 to 1 says that's the Travelers.

As they say, there's a sucker born every minute.

I imagine this year they'll be concentrating their efforts in the hurricane ravaged areas of the south.  But by all knowledgeable accounts they're quite organized, and divide the country up among themselves so they don't overlap.  Very crafty

[litl rooster]

This is kind of old, but I just found it.....Some say I am a gypsy, I have moved around alot. I have usually because of work, but not some adventure the others have talked about, Driveway sealers and Barn Painter's (good sign they are if they have N. Carolina plates on the truck. Sorry but it is true) I have had dealings with Gypsy horse traders over the years, and usualy can pick them out at the sale barns.

Some say my Pa's, grand pa was a Gypsy, He was a phoney Doctor and a Snake oil saleman, and traveled alot, From southern Ohio to Okalahoma. To sell his brew. Not because of his nation of origin, Scott/Irish..But because of his trade. selling something phoney....I always thought the real Gypsy came from Romania or Hungry that area of the world.

[The Arapaho Kid]

I grew up in Oregon and in the summer Gypsies would travel through and do odd jobs for money, or food.  We never had any problems with them stealing from us.  They were pretty straight forward and honest.  If they camped in a field near town there would always be music and singing coming from the camp.  This would, of course, draw the attention of the locals and they would go to the camp and watch the activities.  Here again....we had no problems with them.  One older Gypsie woman would tell your fortune for a dollar.  She told me my fortune.  She said I would grow up to be very wise, but I would never find love, nor would I ever get married.  This came true!

[Marshal harpoluke]

Gypsies--come from Egyptions that is according to legden.  When I was little my parents joined a carivan with them, they treated us very well we never had and trouble with stealing.

People is People, some is good, some not.  Most if Ya treat deciently are good.

Den dar are dose Terrorist!

[Mogorilla]

Someone please correct me, as I am pulling this from dusty brain cells, but Travellers of today are of Irish lineage, not Gypsies.  True Gypsies did come to this country from eastern europe, where they were universally despised.  I have Romanian and Hungarian friends (true immigrants who grew up there), and they have horrible ideas of Gypsies planted in their heads from long lines of bigotry.   It is less publicized, but Hitler and his jack-booted thugs wiped out over a million gypsies.  Legends do link them to Egypt, India, and even Atlantis.   I remember there were Gypsies on an Episode of Bonanza, so they must have been here.

[Marshal harpoluke]

 

The group that I and my parents travelled with claimed to be according to their legond from Egypt.  Heard it from their mouth, Ye can take it or leave it.

[St. George]

I spend a certain amout of my time OCONUS - and our 'Area Briefings' can be somewhat 'exhaustive'.

Here's an edited and compressed example from my Briefing Book - and when you're done - I'm betting that you'll know far more about the Roma than you ever wanted to...

The Roma people (pronounced "rahma"; singular Rom; sometimes Rroma, Rrom), along with the closely related Sinti people, are commonly known as Gypsies in English. They are a traditionally nomadic people who originated in northern India, but currently live worldwide, chiefly in Europe. Most Roma speak some form of Romany, a language closely- related to the modern Indo-European languages of Europe, northern India and Pakistan [1], but usually speak the dominant language of a region they live in as well. Modern anthropology has related Romany to Punjabi and Pothohari, spoken in northern India and Pakistan.

Name: The Roma are popularly known in English as Gypsies or Gipsies, a derivation of the word Egypt, from a former belief among outsiders that they were natives of Egypt. The term was never used by the Roma to describe themselves. The term Gypsy has long been associated with persecution, and has acquired pejorative connotations.

There is no connection between the names of the Roma or their language, and the city of Rome (Roma in Latin, Italian, and Romanian), the Roman Empire, Romania, the Romanian people or the Romanian language .

In Europe the Roma are variously known as Tsigane (French: Tsigane; Albanian: Cigan, Maxhup, Gabel; Bulgarian: Цигани (Tsigani); Czech: Cikáni; Dutch and German: Zigeuner; Swedish: zigenare; Danish: Sigøjner; Norwegian: Sigøyner; Finnish: mustalainen or romani; Lithuanian: Čigonai; Latvian: Čigāni; Russian: Цыгане (Tsyganye); Hungarian: Cigány; Slovak: Cigáni; Greek: Τσιγγάνοι (Tsingánoi); Armenian: Gnchou; Italian: Zingari; Romanian: ţigani; Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian: Cigani Цигани; Polish: Cyganie; Portuguese: Cigano; Spanish: Gitano and in Turkish as Çingene). In Iran they are referred to as کولی (Kowli), in India as Lambani, Lambadi, or Rabari; in Arabic: Ghajar, or Nawar; in Hebrew: צוענים (Tso-a-nim) (pl.) or צועני (Tso-a-ni) (sing.); In Welsh they are known as "Sipsiwn" which is derived from the English "Gypsy".

In recent years, there has been a movement towards use of the "double-R" spellings of "Rroma" for the people and "Rromanes" for the language, as "r" and "rr" represent two different phonemes in Romany. Some Roma say that is a mistaken spelling, never adopted by Roma, and definitively rejected by the last Romany congress, that defined the universal Romany alphabet for the Romany language. Other Roma embrace the spelling as politically correct (or at least neutral).

Most Roma refer to themselves by one generic name, Rom (meaning "man" or "husband").

Language: Analysis of the Romany language has shown that it is related to languages spoken in northern India and Pakistan, such as Hindi and Punjabi. This is regarded as strong evidence for locating the geographical origin of the Roma, particularly in light of the fact that loanwords in Romany make it possible to trace the pattern of their migration west.

Body habitus and ABO blood group distribution is also consistent with northern Indian warrior classes. However, a study recently published in Nature magazine suggests Romany is related to Sinhalese (see footnotes).

Some Roma have developed creole languages and/or mixed languages, including:

Caló or Iberian-Romany, which uses the Romany lexicon and Spanish grammar (the calé). It is the source of many words of Spanish cant and slang.
Lomavren or Armenian-Romany
Angloromani or English-Romany
Romano-Greek or Greek-Romany
Traveller Norwegian or Norwegian-Romany
Romano-Serbian or Serbian-Romany
Boyash, a dialect of Romanian with Hungarian and Romany loanwords
Tavringer Romani or Swedish-Romany

History: The Roma are believed to have left India about AD 1000, and to have passed through what is now Afghanistan, Persia, Armenia, and Turkey. People recognizable by other Roma as Roma still live as far east as Iran, including some who made the migration to Europe, and returned. By the 14th century, the Roma had reached the Balkans, and by the 16th century, Scotland and Sweden. Some Roma migrated south through Syria to North Africa, reaching Europe through the Strait of Gibraltar in the 15th century. Both currents met in today's France. Many peoples similar to the Roma still exist in India, seeming to have originated from the desert state of Rajasthan.

The reason for the diaspora of the Roma is one of the great mysteries of history. It has been proposed by some scholars that the Roma were originally low-caste Hindus recruited into an army of mercenaries, whereupon they were granted warrior caste status, and sent westwards to resist Islamic military expansion. Another theory is that they were captives taken as slaves by Muslim conquerors of northern India, and that they became a distinct community in their lands of captivity. It is reported that Mahmud of Ghazni took half a million prisoners during a Turk-Persian invasion of Sindh and Punjab in India. Why the Roma did not return to India, choosing instead to travel ever-farther west into the lands of Europe, is an enigma, but may relate to military service under the Muslims.

Roma immigration to the United States began in colonial times, with small groups in Virginia and French Louisiana. Larger-scale immigration began in the 1860's, with groups of Romnichal from Britain. The largest number of immigrants came over in the early 1900's, mainly from the Vlax group of Kalderash. The two groups do not often associate with each other. A large number also moved to Latin America.

People:  Estimates suggest that there are approximately 8 to 10 million Roma worldwide [2]. It's estimated that between 7 and 10 million Roma live in Europe. The largest concentrations of Roma are found in the Balkan peninsula of southeastern Europe, in central Europe, the United States, South America, and in Russia and the other successor republics of the USSR. Smaller numbers are scattered throughout western Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.

Countries where Roma populations exceed half a million are Romania, Hungary, the former Yugoslavia, Spain, the United States, Brazil and Argentina. Among other countries where Roma populations are large are Poland, the Czech Republic, Germany, and Slovakia.

The Roma recognize divisions among themselves with some sense of territoriality, emphasized by certain cultural and dialectal differences. Some authorities delineate four main confederations:

Kalderash (smiths who came from the Balkans and then went to central Europe and North America and are the most numerous),
Gitanos (also called Calé, mostly in the Iberian Peninsula, North Africa, and southern France; strong in the arts of entertainment),
Manush (also known as Sinti, mostly in Alsace and other regions of France and Germany; often travelling showmen and circus people), and
Romnichal (Rom'nies) (mainly in Britain and North America).

Each of these main divisions was further divided into two or more subgroups distinguished by occupational specialization or territorial origin, or both. Some of these group names include Machvaya (Machwaya), Lovari, Churari, Sinti, Rudari, Boyash, Ludar, Luri, Xoraxai, Ungaritza, Bashaldé, Ursari and Romungro.

A stereotype that Roma people have psychic powers (e.g. fortune-teller) is still sometimes present, and some romantics attribute the invention of the Tarot cards to them. This may reflect the belief that the Roma, being of alleged Egyptian origin, had knowledge of lost arts and sciences of the ancient Egyptians.

Rejection:  Because of their nomadic lifestyle and unwillingness to be integrated, there has always been a great deal of mutual distrust between the Roma and their more settled neighbours. They were, and frequently still are, popularly believed to be gypsies, tramps, and thieves unfit for sedentary labour, resulting in a great deal of persecution. This belief is often cited as the etymological source of the term gyp, meaning to "cheat", as in "I got gypped by a con man." However, this etymology is difficult to verify; the Oxford English Dictionary lists this as simply a possible derivation. The German name Zigeuner is often derived through popular etymology from Ziehende Gauner, which means 'travelling thieves'. The Roma have sometimes accepted among themselves outsiders from mainstream society.

During the Enlightenment, Spain briefly sought to eliminate the Roma's outsider status, by attempting to forbid the use of the word gitano, and to assimilate the Roma into the mainstream population, by forcing them to abandon their language and way of life. That effort proved unsuccessful.

Persecution of Roma reached a peak in World War II, when the Nazis murdered large numbers of Roma. Like Jews, Roma were slated for extermination, and were to be automatically sentenced to forced labour and imprisonment in a concentration camp or were to be killed on sight. It is believed that 400,000 Roma were killed. See Porajmos

Where possible, many Roma continue their nomadic lifestyle, travelling in caravans (small trailer homes), but in many situations in Eastern Europe, they live in depressed squatter communities with very high unemployment. In some cases — notably the Kalderash clan in Romania, who work as traditional coppersmiths — they have prospered.

To this day, there are still clashes between the Roma and the sedentary population around them. Common complaints are that Roma steal and live off social welfare, and residents often reject Roma encampments. In the UK, travellers, the politically-correct term, became a 2005 general election issue, with the leader of the Conservative Party promising to review the Human Rights Act 1998. This law, which absorbs the European Convention on Human Rights into UK primary legislation, is seen by many to permit the granting of retrospective planning permission. Severe population pressures and the paucity of greenfield sites have led to travellers purchasing land, and setting up residential settlements almost overnight, thus subverting the planning restrictions imposed on other local members of the community.

Former Communist countries:  Many countries, that were formerly part of the Eastern bloc and former Yugoslavia, have substantial populations of Roma. The level of integration of Roma into society remains limited. In these countries, they usually remain on the margins of society, living in isolated ghetto-like settlements (see Chánov). Only a small fraction of Roma children graduate from secondary schools, although during the Communist regime, at least some of the countries in the bloc forced all children to attend school, and provided them with all required basics for free (manuals and the compulsory uniform -- both were provided for all children, not only Roma). Usually they feel rejected by the state and the main population, which creates another obstacle to their integration.

In some countries, dependence on social security systems are part of the problem. For some Roma families, it may be preferable to live on social security, compared to low-paid jobs. That creates many new problems: anger against Roma, conditions that produce crime, and extreme sensitivity to changes in social security. A good example of the last one is Slovakia, where reduction of social security (family is paid allowance only for first three children) led to civil disorder in some Roma villages.

In most countries within or approaching the European Union, Roma people can find chances to lead normal lives. Some Roma families integrate better into the larger societies, avoid having unusually many children, and do not depend on social security. Nevertheless, the Roma most visible to the rest of the community are those few that for various reasons, including traditional avoidance of "pollution" by close contact with non-Roma (probably a self-defence mechanism resulting from centuries of persecution, as well as the need of a nomadic culture to enforce its cultural boundaries), still live in shacks (usually built ad hoc, near railroads) and beg on the streets, perpetuating the bad image of Roma overall. The local authorities tend to try to help such people by improving infrastructure in their settlements and subsidizing families further, but such aid is mostly superficial and insufficient.

Most Roma abandoned their nomadic way of life long ago, and a good representation of the way of life of Balkan Roma today can be seen in the films of the famous Bosnian director Emir Kusturica.

Another problem Roma, and all ethnic groups, face in Europe is the rigidity of the social and economic system, which prevents such groups from integrating. Britain, which is seen as one of the most free-market economies, received initially a large number of Roma from Eastern Europe, probably for this reason.

Seven former Communist Central European and Southeastern European states launched the Decade of Roma Inclusion initiative in 2005 to improve the socio-economic conditions and status of the Roma minority.

Roma Society:  The traditional Roma place a high value on the extended family. Virginity is essential in unmarried women. Both men and women often marry young; there has been controversy in several countries over Roma children getting married under the legal age of consent. Some even parallel Roma arranged marriage practices with slavery. In 2003, one of the many self-styled Roma tribal "kings", Ilie Tortică, banned his subjects from entering their children into marriage until they have come of age. This is seen by some as being in direct conflict with traditional Roma family practices. A rival Roma patriarch, Florin Cioabă, ran afoul of Romanian authorities in late 2003, when he married off his youngest daughter, Ana-Maria, 12

Romany law establishes that the man's family must pay the dowry to the bride's parents. Romany social behaviour is strictly regulated by purity laws ("marime"), still respected by most Roma (except Muslims) and among Sinti groups by the elder generations. This regulation affects many aspects of life, and is applied to actions, people and things: parts of the human body are considered impure: the genital organs, because they produce impure emissions, and the lower body. Both clothes for the lower body, and all clothes of mentruating women are washed separately. Items used for eating are also washed in a different place. Childbirth is considered impure, and must occur outside the dwelling place; the mother is considered impure during forty days. Death is seen as impure, as well, and affects the whole family of the dead, who remain impure for a period of time. The dead must be buried, not burned, and subsequently enter Heaven.

Religion:  It has been suggested that while still in India the Roma people belonged to the Hindu religion, this theory being supported by the Romany word for "cross", trushul, which is the word which describes Shiva's trident.

Roma have usually have adopted the dominant religion of the host country but often keep their particular ways of believing and worshipping. Most Eastern European Roma are Catholic or Orthodox or, particularly in the Balkans, Muslim. Those in Western Europe and the United States are mostly either Catholic or Protestant. Most in Latin America kept their European religion, most of them being Orthodox.

After WWII, a consistent and constantly-growing number of Roma have embraced Evangelical movements, and for the first time in history, Roma have engaged themselves as religious leaders and ministers, creating their own, autonomous churches and missionary organizations. In some countries, the majority of Roma now belong to the Romany churches. This unexpected change, usually hardly criticized by many, has greatly contributed to a better image of Roma in society, as they have begun to perform legitimate work, and obtain legal permits for commercial activities.

Evangelical Romany churches exist today in every country where Roma are settled. Particularly strong is the movement in France and Spain (in this latter State, there are more than one thousand Romany churches, known as "Filadelfia", of which almost one hundred are in Madrid alone). In Germany, the most numerous group is that of Polish Roma, having their main church in Mannheim. Other important and numerous Romany assemblies exist in Los Angeles, Houston, Buenos Aires and Mexico. Some groups in Romania and Chile have joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

In the Balkans, the Roma of Macedonia and Kosovo have been particularly active in Islamic mystical brotherhoods (Sufism). Muslim Roma immigrants to Western Europe and America have brought these traditions with them.

Roma Msic:
In addition to their own Roma music, which is very relevant within the Eastern European folk, the Roma have had and still maintain, a prominent role in the evolution of Flamenco music and dance. Also European-style jazz is widely practised by Roma; the most famous musician was Django Reinhardt.

Groups with Smilar Lifestyles:  In Germany and Switzerland, France and Austria there also exist so-called white gypsies which are known under the names of Jenische (German spelling), Yéniche (French spelling), and Yenish or Yeniche (English spellings). Their language seems to be grammatically identical with other (Swiss) German dialects; the origin of the lexicon however, incorporates German, Romany, Yiddish and other words. See: Jenische (in German)

In Norway (and to a lesser degree, in Sweden and Denmark) there is a group of people who call themselves Tatere; they are often mistaken to be of the same people as the Romani. The Tater people were often working people, building roads and railways in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, and therefore, have similar traits with the gypsies. Their origin is unknown, and they speak either Norwegian or Swedish. Their name comes from a belief that they were of the nomadic Tartar people.. Distinguished Norwegian rocker Åge Aleksandersen is a Tater.

There is also a group of people in Ireland, the United Kingdom and the United States called Irish Gypsies or Irish Travellers. In Scotland, they are traditionally known as "tinkers", from the Irish "tinceard", meaning "tinsmith"; as this term became a pejorative amongst the settled community, the term Irish Travellers emerged as a more sensitive descriptor. They are not genetically related to the Roma, but their nomadic culture has been influenced by them. Their language, Shelta, is mainly based on an Irish Gaelic lexicon and an English-based grammar, with influence from Romany.

The 'quinqui' or 'mercheros' of Spain are a minority group, formerly nomadic, that share a lot of the way of life of Spanish Roma. Their origin is unclear, maybe peasants who lost their land in the 16th century. In spite of sharing persecution and mores with the Roma, the quinqui have often set themselves apart from them.


So - now you know...

Scouts Out!