National..

[Ima Sure Shot]

Stages that give shooters choice of how to engage targets are diffcult for the spotters. Especially if they do not shoot many matches.  At one National a couple of years ago I choose to shoot a couple of stages in a way that for me was easier. I shot them well within the written instructions. I also got procedurals because I did it somewhat different than others in my posse. None of the posse questioned if persons in other posses shot them that way.  If one leaves it open to interpretation it should be made clear to the posse there are other ways to shoot the stage other than the one the first person chose.Celeste

[Cliff Fendley]

To me the main complaint of any stage; They are not algebra or geometry problems, therefore one should not have to use a quadratic equation or the 47th problem of Euclid to figure out the order of engagement.

I agree

[Cliff Fendley]

Stages that give shooters choice of how to engage targets are diffcult for the spotters. Especially if they do not shoot many matches.Celeste

And when you've got the boom of full power black powder rounds and smoke everywhere it's nice to know where too look.

[bowiemaker]

I think it should be more about shooting and hitting the target rather than the order of shooting the targets. I do not like complicated stages where it is more of a challenge to remember the correct order than it is to shoot.

[Cash Creek]

I agree with Bowiemaker,  more about shooting and hitting the target rather than the order of shooting.. I'm about 20 years pass being a speed shooter..and I get my cataract surgery next month maybe, just maybe I will be able to see the target..CC

[Will Ketchum]

I think it should be more about shooting and hitting the target rather than the order of shooting the targets. I do not like complicated stages where it is more of a challenge to remember the correct order than it is to shoot.

I agree.  I don't like "procedural traps".  Some stage writers seem to like to create complicated stages .   I think a shooter should be able to solve the problem on at least some stages.  This can be done with knock down targets so the scorers can easily see which targets are hit no matter what the order.

Will Ketchum

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Boy, is this turning to a well-discussed theme!

I have to agree with nearly everyone here.  

Pancho, what you see as fun is right out of MY "fun book."

I DO like the type of stages that allow the shooter to use what they want and in the order they want, but Ima sure brings up a good point.  Not EVERYONE will choose the same method, and furthermore, the spotters can really be challenged when no one is sure what target will be shot next!  Ima, if I'd been there that time you wouldn't have gotten a "P" for doing things differently!

I don't like "Ps" anyway, at least for most that get given.  I think (and I guess this is the old, dumb, ex-tanker/soldier in me, but it IS MUCH more important if all targets are HIT, rather than what order the shooter happens to shoot them!  I look at which target is the "most dangerous."  In other words, which target would most likely get YOU first.  That's why anyone who has shot with me knows that the closest targets SHOULD be shot first.  This is often most common, but I've seen plenty of elaborate stages that start with the farthest targets, i.e. rifle targets, first.  This is pretty stupid in a real-world situation.  And even though this is for fun, I feel you should ALWAYS practice as you would shoot for real.  Don't practice bad habits or procedures.

And another thing.  I don't see this a lot, but sometimes spotters are too strict.  The shooter should ALWAYS get the benefit of the doubt.  Period.  Not safety matters, mind you.  If two spotters  say the shooter missed 3, but the 3rd spotter says 2, and the discussion that WILL follow doesn't resolve it, the shooter should only be assessed 2 misses.  IMHO.  MOST of the spotters I've worked with agree, but I've certainly seen times when "personal issues" have caused a spotter to be more "strict" in their interpretations and not always have a fair & partial objectivity.

At our SMVS shoot yesterday there was a short discussion about sweeps.  I have a 2-page list somewhere that lists all the sweeps that writer could find.  This is, to ME, totally unnecessarily complicated.  Nevada Sweep is about the most common, whatever.  Use the most common and forget the rest!  And if the stage directions mention a sweep by name they should explain it.  Or not use the name at all.  Many folks don't know what the difference is.

I believe in the K.I.S.S. theory very heartily.  Keep It Simple, Stoopid!  The more complicated it is and the more "math" needed (as Trap so wisely put it) just confuses things ... and it becomes less fun for most.  Yer mileage may vary, as always.

Thanks ...

[Texas Lawdog]

+1  Well said SHB!

[Major 2]

" ... I guess this is the old, dumb, ex-tanker/soldier in me,"


Yeah ! Jeff .... Dumb like a FOX !  


I have reviewed the Stages, the distances are not appearent , but the order is given and reasonable to follow.
I did not read into it, any Traps

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Great!

[Ima Sure Shot]

Steelhorse,
I went to one of those self defense classes a few years ago and I asked the instructor if he shot IDPA, SASS so forth. Answer- NO.  I had noticed the IDPA version of slicing the pie was different than the way I was taught and he taught it the way I was taught. And he did not shoot the IDPA, SASS shoots because of muscle memory and bad habits.

I design stages with safety in mind first, as well as order, fun, and bad habits.

One sweep I have used that bothered  some of the SASS shooters the first time I used it was a Sgt. York sweep. My Great Uncle had a photo of him on his mantle as I was growing up.  So I read about him. Special circumstance from cover with a rifle- He shot the last one first so that no one knew what was happening and it worked in that circumstance as thay were not expecting it.  Other than that, you are right on.  The most immediate threat.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steelhorse,
I went to one of those self defense classes a few years ago and I asked the instructor if he shot IDPA, SASS so forth. Answer- NO.  I had noticed the IDPA version of slicing the pie was different than the way I was taught and he taught it the way I was taught. And he did not shoot the IDPA, SASS shoots because of muscle memory and bad habits.

I design stages with safety in mind first, as well as order, fun, and bad habits.

One sweep I have used that bothered  some of the SASS shooters the first time I used it was a Sgt. York sweep. My Great Uncle had a photo of him on his mantle as I was growing up.  So I read about him. Special circumstance from cover with a rifle- He shot the last one first so that no one knew what was happening and it worked in that circumstance as thay were not expecting it.  Other than that, you are right on.  The most immediate threat.

Lady Sure Shot,

I've never heard of anything called a Sgt. York Sweep ... but I know exactly what you're talking about because I, too was very interested in this Great American Hero!  He did do that once, and added to his already growing list of achievements.  To add that kind of a procedure sounds fun!  It would be a special circumstance and could be done to kind of "mix things up" from the usual 10-10-4 that abound.  I'm not intending to pick apart any or all scenarios that don't conform to my way of thinking, nor would I expect that every stage be the same.  I still fondly (yes, really) remember the "Yodeling Eustis" stage of numerous years ago and I certainly like some "spice" added to a match.  I just don't like it when every stage has its' own difficult-to-remember target array that begs for many "Ps."  That loses a lot of fun, to me.

By the way, Ima, the "York Sweep" method of target arrangement IS taught in tactical scenarios in the Military.  It is especially effective if the shooter is in hiding and by shooting "Tail-End Charlie" first he/she can remain undetected and then able to repeat the "trick" numerous times before the enemy catches on.  It's a good tactic in certain instances.  If presented in this manner, it can be fun!  I've done it at least twice at GLFMC shoots.  Like I said, it breaks up the sameness sometimes.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

When stage writing or match directing, you must remember:  you will never please everybody.

You will have folks gripe that targets were:  too close, too far, too hard, too easy, too small, too large, and sometimes the wrong color.

"The other guys" are shooting targets that are way too big and way too close.  I really hope we don't go there.


Pancho

[Will Ketchum]

Ima, I have always understood that his rear to front feat was when he was down to his 1911.  He said he did it like he would have a line of turkeys as so not to spook the ones in the front.  Regardless he was a brave man and an excellent shot with any weapon.

I just picked up a Remington 1917 rifle because most historians believe that is the rifle he used.

Will Ketchum

[Irish Dave]

Pancho:

I don't think we're "going there," but too much of a good thing is still too much.

I think most of our shooters/members would agree that 2011 was a much better mix of targets and distances than was the 2010 Nationals. I know the complaints I received in 2010 were numerous and vocal, whereas I don't recall hearing any at the 2011 match.

I'll try to dig up the stats, because that's really where the tale is told.

[Irish Dave]

Well, can't find them at the moment, but  we did an accounting of shooters vs. misses and shooters vs. procedurals at the 2010 match.

If I recall correctly, we determined that, on average, every shooter had 17-plus misses and 2.1 procedurals for the 10-stage match. That is exceedingly high in both categories. In one case I know of, an experienced long-time shooter ended up with nearly 40 misses for the match. It clearly demonstrated that we needed to make some significant adjustments for 2011. 

Duke and I discussed this problem and he made some very positive adjustments for 2011, bringing both of those categories down to much more reasonable levels. I heard no target complaints either way in 2011.  (Other than my bitching at myself for shooting so poorly on the "running man."    )

[bowiemaker]

I think the running man outran everybody but it was a fun and different stage. I hope I get another crack at him this year. Speaking as a first-year NCOWS shooter with limited experience, I really liked the stages at the Nationals last year.

Some targets were pretty easy to hit but I am living proof that no target is too big to miss. I missed that gigantic satellite dish on the last stage! I felt like Lee Marvin in "Cat Ballou" - " He did it! He missed the barn!"

Regardless, I am not opposed to moving targets farther back. I like the challenge of hitting more difficult targets rather than speed shooting.

[Cutter Carl]

Stge writing is tough.  You have to keep all your potential shooter in mind. 

Movement is good but not too much.  Covering a lot of ground on any one stage on on multiple stages is going to hurt your those that
have physical issues.  To many tough targets will cost you participation.

Here in  Florida we don't really have any ranges with CAS shooting where it is safe or allowable for flyers on the action ranges, so we never shoot flying clays during a match.  Most of our action ranges you can only get about 30 yards or so of depth so anything outside of that is out of the question. 

I like a real mix.  Maybe some stages with smaller and farther targets and other stages with closer targets.  Some movement but a stand and deliver stage is also fun.  A moving target or two is great but not every stage. 

To make it short, something for everyone.  Moderation I think is key.

[Cash Creek]

I was with Duke Henry this week at the range when he was set targets he was working hard to make sure everyone would be able to shoot, the physical issues was solved by shooting from a chair and making sure you could see the targets setting down,  the running man will be back he  (running man) has been working hard over the winter getting in shape so he can run faster   ..we talk a lot about the long range, there will be three different places to shoot from, the back one it 270 paces, I told Rowdy the targets where the size of a bottle cap, but that was just for him..    they are much, much larger, size of coffee cup...   CC

PS  there might be a flyers or two also..only Tj has to yodel..

[Dynamite Bill]

wow! when you said the guy missed 4o i thought you were talking about me, i only missed 37. of course i did much better the second half of the stages.