Plan to order Swiss...but which granulation?

[swampsavage]

I already have a substantial supply of Goex in 2F and 3F, and the MAV D mould, but also have a Lyman 427098 mould.  Based on some excellent info, mostly in this forum, I suspect that Swiss is the way to go for the 427098.  The firearms in question are 3rd generation Colt, 7 1/2"bbl and Cimarron 1873 Sporting Rifle, 30"bbl, both in 44WCF.  Shooting will be for recreation and hunting, no CAS at this time.  

Which granulations would be suggested? 1 1/2F, 2F, or 3F, or some quantity of each (I plan to order 10lbs)

thanks,
John

[August]

In your situation, I'd order 3Fg and could compress it only a little bit in loading.

[w44wcf]

swampsavage,

Welcome to the forum.   I would suggest Swiss  2F.   I did try some 3F but it was not quite as accurate as 2F for me in the 44-40.

w44wcf

[Okefinokee Outlaw]

I use 35 grains of Swiss 2FG in my 44wcf Uberti 1873 rifle and it is extremely accurate.

[Lucky R. K.]

If you want to use Swiss, I would go with a full case of 3F only slightly compressed.  Swiss is the best real black powder out there but IMOP it is overkill for SAS shooting.

Good Luck.

Lucky 

[Junkman]

What the heck does 'IMOP' mean? 

[Deadeye Dick]

swampsavage,

Welcome to the forum.   I would suggest Swiss  2F.   I did try some 3F but it was not quite as accurate as 2F for me in the 44-40.

w44wcf

I agree. 2F is the most accurate in 44-40 for me too.

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Howdy
Yes 2f is the BEST for me in 44wcf .

[swampsavage]

Thanks all...

...seems to be unanimous, for those who responded specifically to use in 44WCF, that 2F is the way to go.  since my budget is limited  I'll take that path.  I'll also be using my GOEX 2F and 3F in my 45/70, 36 and 44 cal. cap'nball, and with the Big Lube bullets.

John

[john boy]

since my budget is limited  I'll take that path.

John, if I was on a limited budget like you, using Swiss FFg for just recreation and hunting - with the price of Swiss for 10 lbs, it would be the last powder I'd buy. Presume you haven't read much about the quality of the 2010 shipment of KIK powder at $9.50 a can - less expensive.

[w44wcf]

John Boy,
I finally got a chance to test the KIK powder more extensively with the 427098 in the 44-40 24" barrel.
Long story short, it would fire 2X's as many rounds accurately than Goex wihout fouling out (30 rounds vs 15) but after that groups started opening up as a solid ring of fouling started accumulating at the muzzle.

Interestingly, the fouling was minimal (similar to SWISS) right up to the black ring.

By comparison, if one wants to shoot a minimum of 50 rounds of the 427098 with no loss of accuracy and with minimal fouling the length of the barrel SWISS is the only powder, in my experience, that is up to the task.

w44wcf

[john boy]

John, my good friend, you know I like a challenge.  I'll bring another 50 rounds of 38-55's loaded with the 2010 lot of KIK FFg to Ridgway for the 30" HiWall.  Load up your Marlin with 50 rounds of Swiss.  We'll set up the steels and have a 50 round comparison.  Looser buys breakfast. And if I loose, I'll add 2 boxes of cigars for you too! Okie Dookie?

Here's what the foul of 50 rounds looked like last year on the high range with no degradation of accuracy out to the Rams (1 wet and 3 dry)...

Needless to say - I'm a believer
BTW, got a new bullet to try out ... the old Ideal 37584, 322gr.  It came in many weights and the 322gr has 9 GG's with the original Marlin FN like the 375166

[w44wcf]

John Boy,
Looking forward to our Ridgway get together.  Sounds like a plan......BUT you have to use a bullet that does not contain more than 1.0 gr. of lube...... Oh now I see - 30" barrel ..... okay then, make that  1 1/4 grs. of lube (30/24)  

Nice find on that vintage Ideal mold.

w44wcf

[john boy]

w44wcf - OH OH, got a problem with the Plan.  The Ideal 37584 carries 1.5grs lubed with NASA! In all 9 GG's and the crimp groove!
How about if I lose, breakfast - 2 cups of tea and 3 packs of cigars?  


318.8gr Naked (1:40)
1.18" Length, non tapered
0.377 Driving Band
0.375 Base
Figured to seat at the crimp groove with 45gr of FFg, powder has to be compressed 0.420

[w44wcf]

John Boy,
"How about if I lose, breakfast - 2 cups of tea and 3 packs of cigars?"
But what if I come up on the short end of the stick?

Lets see....... 10 grooves = 1 1/2 grs of lube.
That = .15 grs per groove
So ..... 8 grooves = 1.2 grs. which would be pretty close.......
or you could shoot 60 rounds to keep things even.  

Wow! .42" of compression?!

w44wcf

[Fairshake]

Swampsavage, What you have to know is that all powders made in any other country are smaller in grain size than the Goex powders made here. Swiss 2F is very close in size to the Goex 3F as are the KIK, Schutzen powders.
Black powder burns from the outside in and if the outer surface is small then you will have a faster burn.
Unlike smokeless powders which are all of different grain types and mixture, BP is all the same with only the grain size being different.
In other words 1F and 4F are the exact same powder that may have come from the same cake. It depends on how much milling it receives as to how it turns out.
If you look at Swiss under a microscope you will see that the grain size is very uniform and equal through out.
If you look at the current Goex you will see grains from almost the entire spread of sizes.
What a lot of people forget is that Goex since being taken over by Hodgdon has only the standard grade of powder left. Hodgdon saw fit to quit making the premium powders and only leave the standard grade.
Swiss is a premium powder.
For the shooting of Sass with the 44WCF which is the caliber I choose to shoot, you can't go wrong with the powders like KIK. I use it in 35 grain loads that are very accurate.
If you buy it from Powder Inc it is $16.50 a pound delivered to your door. That is for 10 lbs. as it becomes cheaper with the larger ordered amounts.
I live in Louisiana where Goex is made and I'm a strong believer in buying USA products. Hodgdon has saw fit to raise the prices of Goex by 22% in a few months and then discontinue all the top grades leaving us with one grade of powder to chose from at an inflated price. I see fit to buy else where.
It is my belief that Hodgdon is out to destroy the Sporting side of Goex sales and offer their bad products in it's place. Take Care David
PS You may find that the 427098 runs out of lube when fired from a long barreled rifle. If you watched the video's by my friend W44wcf when he was hitting steel rams at over three hundred yards. He does say the good ole 427098 but he was not shooting that bullet but one that was modified.

[Roosterman]

I like 1 1/2.I use it inall my large bore hunting rifles (38-55, 45-70, 45-90) and my percussion sharps. It's way too expensive for me for cowboy shooting.

[Cuts Crooked]

Gang, I felt the need to remove some of the discussion because of where it was going.

If you feel the need to continue......please do so in PMs.

Thanx