Prepping new 45 colt brass

[mrhazmat]

Howdy,

Plan on shooting only black this season and I would like to hear recommendations on new case prep. Talking new Winchester brass here.

I understand this is not rocket science but after reading hundreds of threads about the 45 colt and BP I have some questions.

First,  Would you anneal the case mouths?

Second, full length sizing  versus just the case mouth?  New brass chambers in the pistols just fine as is. Not sure about my Uberti 66 though.

Third,  Winchester LP primers - Large pistol and magnum or CCI magnum LP.  Do not have any federals

Plan on shooting BigLube 250 PRS sized at .454 with Goex 2f.

Again, not trying to overthink everything, just looking for a good outcome and maximize case life.

BTW, did a search and could not get anything to come up that helped much.

Thanks in advance,

Rafe Caradec
SASS #91552

[rickk]

I'm sure there are a hundred answers, and they are all right.

For me:

anneal case mouths... No. It is a lot of work for a large number of cases and I don't think you would benefit from it.  Avoid crimping the bullet to death is all. No reason for it with BP.  It doesn't need a crimp of death to ignite properly, and it doesn't need a crimp of death to hold the bullet in place, especially with a pretty much full, compressed case of powder and proper expander plug choice.  A separate crimp die is a good thing. The LEE factory crimp die works well and doesn't cost a whole lot.

Full length resizing ... I always do. If you are shooing it in multiple guns you will want to as well. I sometimes can't actually get brand new brass to chamber in my New Vaqueros without full length resizing as far down as I can get it to go. I tried an RCBS sizing die and it didn't want to size down far enough. I wound up switching to a LEE sizing die and it sized a bit further down when adjusted to almost contact the shell holder and fixed my problem.

Primers... I like Federals - Magnums at that. It is what I buy almost exclusively, but I have reasons for the magnums that have nothing to do with BP. If you plan on messing with hammer springs then you will eventually look at switching to Federals.  Otherwise, they will all set off BP and it probably does not matter.

Big Lube 250 bullet is working out well for me so far. I have two 6 cavity molds in fact.  Use a BP lube. Need sheep tallow for lube, Dixie Gun Works usually has it. If they are out, PM me - I bought too much of everything last month.

To add to your confusion, I usually use a new case for target practice, and after it is once-fired I trim to length. Then I don't trim it any more.

My die choices are as follows:

LEE universal decapper (prior to vibratory cleaning).

LEE sizing die.

RCBS Cowboy expanding die. You may find yourself experimenting with expander plugs depending on what you size your bullets to. RCBS sells a .454 and a .452 expander plug. I size my bullets to .452 and the .452 expander plug makes for a very loose bullet fit. The plug that comes with the Cowboy die is marked "COWBOY" and it sizes tighter than the .452 plug. As far as I know, the "Cowboy" plug is not available separately. Nothing will stop you from turning down a .452 plug smaller, but I have tried it with sandpaper and a drill press and it is slow going.

RCBS bullet seating die.

LEE factory crimp die.

A Wilson .45 Colt cartridge gauge I found to be a handy tool to own, especially when setting things up for the first time.

[Charlie Bowdre]

Hi Rafe
Likely all I will tell you will get you in trouble but I just wanted to say Hi and welcome to the Magic!

I shoot 45 LC and 45 Schofield in a Uberti Winchester 73 , a pair of Uberti El Patrons and a pair of Uberti Open Tops chambered in 45 Schofield. Gusee I like Uberti's
Shoot the Holy Black in all but the El PAtrons , I find they are milled to such a fine tolerance that they clog up pretty quick.
Use 2ff Goex as a base . with 200 grain RNFP sized 452 , which I cast from ww in a Lee 6 cavity mould.
Grease em up with about a 50/50 beeswax and Crisco lube.
Winchester Large Pistol Primers , And Winchester brass when I can get it. Otherwise Starline.
Brass is hard to get here North of the Medicine Line . Our Govt. in the past has done its best to make criminals out of us :0)
I also have a pair of ,guess what , Uberti 51 Navy RM conversions which I shoot BP behind the Big Lube Snake bite bullet. Loads of fun.
Again I stick yo Winchester components , Goex Powder and enjoy.
I DO NOT have any problems with clean up , as I am retired the cleaning is all part of the day.

I am sure you will get some replies which can help a lot more then mine . This is a great site and lots of knowledge and good pards here.
Enjoy
Dutch

OOPS I don't anneal , good way for mr to either burn my fingers off ot the house down.!

[wildman1]

I do anneal it makes cleaning a lot quicker. I don't resize my brass. I use Rem. brass in my NMV's and everythin else in my 92's.  WM

[Grapeshot]

Since I only use the .45 Colt cartridges in my EMF Dakota and GW2 I don't full length size them unless I find the new cases won't fit my chambers.  All I do to the cases is de-burr and champher the case mouths, prime, (Winchester Magnum Large Pistol Primer), expand the case mouth and bell the case slightly with my RCBS .45 Colt Dies I purchased in 1974.  Then it's pouring in a powder charge,(2.2 cc's of Goex 2Fg), stick a card wad cut from soda can cartons and compress the powder enough to seat the boolit, a 250 grain PRS Big Lube Boolit, apply a taper crimp with a old C&H taper crimp die I got in the early 1980's and I'm done.  Oh yeah, the boolits are lubed with my home made BP Compatable lube of Bees Wax, Crisco, and a shot of Murphy's Oil Soap.  That goes in my Lyman lubrisizer and I'm set.
Big Boom, lots of lube and a clang of lead hitting steel.  YMMV.

[mrhazmat]

Howdy,

Thanks for the replies.  Much good info there!

See ya on the range.

Rafe

[Abilene]

I have never annealed.  Might try it some day. I do always size new brass before loading.  Once I started loading some new .45 Colt brass without resizing and there was no neck tension on the bullt, could actually twist the bullet in the case after loading.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy pards!

Mr. Hazzy, you have some good info here already.  Have FUN!

I'm with Abilene; I have never annealed any of my brass.  (This does NOT apply to any future smokeyless powder high-powered rifle rounds I may load - they are a different kettle of fish.)

I bought 2 thousand Winchester cases, all from the same lot.  Winchester for whatever reason has pretty much the softest cases.  I think they are a touch thinner than some others, but also I have found (by talking to 3 different manufacturer's reps) that industry-wide, Winchester uses the "softest" alloy.   That's what the Hornady, Sierra, and Hodgdon reps told me, anyway.  So, they might work best for BP loading.  However, I also have and use 400-500 Starline cases, plus a couple hundred Remington cases and 200 (ish) Remington nickle-plated brass. (Starline, according to the same reps I talked with reportedly uses the thickest, hardest brass.)   To be honest, I notice no difference ... with the exception of the nickle-plated brass.  It has much less "give" and I've had MUCH fewer case-mouth splits with the brass cases, rather than the plated stuff.  This has been known for a long time and isn't some "new" revelation!  Annealing WILL help prolong the life of your shells.  Having said that and that I DON'T anneal, let me say type this.  ALL of my cases have been loaded with full-power smokeyless loads and for the last 10 years, only full-power BP loads.  I am up to loading them around 8-10 times each.  I have lost very few to case-mouth cracks (probably less than a dozen over the years) and I look forward to many more loadings!

Anyway, I use several different types of primers.  Mostly Winchester (which say regular OR magnum) but also I've used a lot of CCI and I have some Federals, 'tho I haven't yet used any of them yet.  If I remember, the Federals are the easiest or "softest" primers, which is what Rickk is referring to.  Many folks who have lightened their trigger pull which involves (usually) changing the mainspring to one that is less stiff.  These folks have also found that their guns don't always set off some of the different primers, so they MUST use the Federals.  I have lightened my trigger-pull and mainsprings, but I don't lighten any more than what ANT primer I can find will set off.  Around here, (Indy area) Win & CCI primers are the easiest to find.  RickK is also correct when he says that Magnum primers are NOT necessary to "light" BP - it'll go off with ANY good spark, and all primers will work.  I DO sometimes use Magnum primers, but it's simply because it's what I had on hand at the time.  When I was new to BP cartridge loading I was told that Mag primers were a "must."  Not so at all.  But different folks have different reasons for different tasks.  For typical CAS shooting, ANY primer that your hammer will bust will work!  I think that people got that opinion from their experiences with percussion caps.  Pyrodex and some of the BP subs DO need a "hotter" (longer lasting) cap to ignite and that's why CCI came out with Magnum caps which put out a much BETTER flame to ignite C&B percussion guns.

I make my own lube from Beeswax & Olive Oil, just like many have done for over a century.

All in all, it's a hoot!

PS - By the way, I trimmed all of them (what a job THAT was!) after about load #5.  Most didn't need much and I suspect if I had trimmed them all before I started using them, I wouldn't need to re-trim them any time in the near future.  The trimming was only for uniformity ... NOT because they had stretched so much!  (This is VERY much unlike my .223 cases which need to be trimmed about every-other loading!)

[wildman1]

Howdy pards!

Mr. Hazzy, you have some good info here already.  Have FUN!
Pyrodex and some of the BP subs DO need a "hotter" (longer lasting) cap to ignite and that's why CCI came out with Magnum caps which put out a much BETTER flame to ignite C&B percussion and flint guns.

Just wondrin how ya got them primers ta set off yer flinters SHB.      WM

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Just wondrin how ya got them primers ta set off yer flinters SHB.      WM

Good point, WM.  Haven't you heard of the CCI Magnum English Flints?

OOPS!

I was only thinking that no doubt some flint-shooters use Pyrodex and some of the subs!  I changed the post to read right.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I don't do a darn thing to them. I just load them up right out of the bag.

And you don't need magnum primers to light off Black Powder. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless. All I ever use in any of my Black Powder loads, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 44 Russian are regular large pistol primers, either Winchester or Federals, except for a few years ago when there was a shortage of primers. Then I was using anything I could get my hands on.

I do tend to use Federals more often because they are easier to set off with the light mainsprings in a couple of my guns. But it has no effect on how the powder burns.

[rickk]

The reason that I typically use Magnum primers is that is all I typically buy, and I buy the several cases at a time.

They cost the same as regular, and they work on slow powders like H110. They also work well on reduced loads where you are pushing the lower end of the charge range.

Yup, they aren't needed at all on BP.

[john boy]

I don't do a darn thing to them. I just load them up right out of the bag.

Do the same as Driftwood using a Dillon 550B.  Same charged rounds are used in revolvers and rifles

Having reloaded many cases with no splits over 10 times with a hard crimp to minimize blow back , splits are few and far in between - so, why anneal?  High pressure rounds are the enemy of cases that are not annealed.  BP is not a high pressure powder.

I anneal only BPCR reloads because I want the maximum sealing of the case in the chamber shooting for long range accuracy.  This definitely helps uniform ignition velocity and the standard deviation of the fps

As for primers, because black powder doesn't need a high brisance, any LP primer brand ignites the round.  There are Chevy's, Chrysler's and Ford's.  I use CCI 300 primers for no other reason than I use CCI's!

Magnum LP primers are needed to properly ignite ball powder (which BP ain't)

[joec]

Quick newbe question how does one anneal brass?

[rickk]

Joec,

I have annealed brass to make wildcat cartridges out of .223 brass.

Stand them up in a pan of water so that only the top half of the case is exposed, heat with a torch until it gets hot enough that it will give off a visible glow if the torch is removed, and then flop them over into the water.

I have seen pictures of much more controlled setups, but that is probably how most people do it.

It is hard to get the entire case mouth up to the same temperature all around the case at the same time. Some people use multiple torches to get the entire case at once. I would think that an infrared pyrometer might be a handy tool to establish a more uniform process but up until recently they were very expensive.

For extensive case forming (like necking up a .223 case into a 7mm TCU) it is a necessary process to prevent the cases from cracking. It is a fair amount of work however, and I avoid work at all costs unless there is no way around it.


This is how you do it if you have too much money: http://www.annealingmachines.com/model_400

Rick

[joec]

Joec,

I have annealed brass to make wildcat cartridges out of .223 brass.

Stand them up in a pan of water so that only the top half of the case is exposed, heat with a torch until it gets hot enough that it will give off a visible glow if the torch is removed, and then flop them over into the water.

I have seen pictures of much more controlled setups, but that is probably how most people do it.

It is hard to get the entire case mouth up to the same temperature all around the case at the same time. Some people use multiple torches to get the entire case at once. I would think that an infrared pyrometer might be a handy tool to establish a more uniform process but up until recently they were very expensive.

For extensive case forming (like necking up a .223 case into a 7mm TCU) it is a necessary process to prevent the cases from cracking. It is a fair amount of work however, and I avoid work at all costs unless there is no way around it.


This is how you do it if you have too much money: http://www.annealingmachines.com/model_400

Rick

Thanks Rick. I looked it up also to see how it is done with the different devises. It seems this mostly done on rifle brass and not so much on pistols. How much life does it seem to add to the brass?

[Wagon Box Willy]

I use Win brass, WLP primers, PRS250 and J/P200's, prefer the 200's in my pistols.  I don't anneal but I do full length resizse.  I also put a heavy crimp on my loads for my '66 to aid in case expansion and to try to reduce blow back.

Willy

[Wagon Box Willy]

Howdy

I don't do a darn thing to them. I just load them up right out of the bag.

And you don't need magnum primers to light off Black Powder. Black Powder is easier to ignite than Smokeless. All I ever use in any of my Black Powder loads, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 44 Russian are regular large pistol primers, either Winchester or Federals, except for a few years ago when there was a shortage of primers. Then I was using anything I could get my hands on.

I do tend to use Federals more often because they are easier to set off with the light mainsprings in a couple of my guns. But it has no effect on how the powder burns.

Howdy Driftwood, do you expect you'll start annealing now that you're buying Starline or are you happy with it the way it is?

Willy

[rickk]

Joec,

I have no idea how much life it adds to the brass.

The only reason I did it was because when making a wildcat cartridge you are doing significant case forming and if you don't anneal it a couple times during the process it will split before it is completely formed the first time.  If I wasn't turning .223 brass into 7mm there is no way I would bother to anneal.

With handgun brass, most of the time you will loose a case or step on it before you wear it out.

Rick

[joec]

Joec,

I have no idea how much life it adds to the brass.

The only reason I did it was because when making a wildcat cartridge you are doing significant case forming and if you don't anneal it a couple times during the process it will split before it is completely formed the first time.  If I wasn't turning .223 brass into 7mm there is no way I would bother to anneal.

With handgun brass, most of the time you will loose a case or step on it before you wear it out.

Rick

Thanks again Rick I will only be doing pistol ammo as my rifle also shots 45 Colt which I plan on reloading with black powder.