New Canadian Spencer Shooter (..... in waiting NO LONGER .....)

RattlesnakeJack · February 25, 2012, 01:54:22 PM

Rattlesnake Jack (#103) checking back here after a lengthy absence!

I joined the SSS a few years back when I had a Spencer carbine, brass, dies and bullet mould ready to come to me from Marshal Halloway .... but he had to refund my money when he couldn't get Dept. of State approval for export! Although I consoled myself at the time by acquiring a Canada Militia-marked Peabody rifle (see below) I have harboured a hankering for a Spencer ever since .... but have had no luck locating an appropriate original "Canadian" Spencer.

Well, as of yesterday a Cimarron Firearms dealer up here North of the 'Medicine Line' has a 56-50 rifle coming in his next shipment - apparently the only one in their current stock.

You may well ask why a Canadian (well known for shooting mostly British Empire firearms at Grand Army of the Frontier events) is expressing such joy at getting a Spencer ..... or, indeed why I made reference above to a "Canadian" Spencer. Well, a relatively little-known fact is that of approximately 3,000 rifle-configuration Model 1865 Spencers produced (according to one reference, at any rate) fully 2,000 of them ended up in the hands of Canada Militia volunteers, in service from 1866-1870. (Canada also acquired 2,300 Spencer carbines at the same time - all of the Spencers being 56-50 - as well as 3,000 .50-60 Peabody rifles; 1,000 Starr carbines were also purchased, but apparently none of those were ever issued.)

The cause of this major (for li'l ole Canada, at any rate) arms acquisition was the threat of invasion by the Irish Republican Army (first historical use of that name) of the Fenian Brotherhood, which was a very large, well-funded organization of Irish-Americans whose stated objective was the invasion of Canada, to be held ransom for the independence of Ireland!

Crackpot as the Fenian plot may sound today, it was considered a very real and significant threat at the time: British Army Regulars had been largely withdrawn from Canada years before, leaving its defence to the entirely voluntary Canada Militia. Tens of thousands of Irish-American Civil War veterans joined the Fenian Brotherhood, and their forces were well equipped with the war surplus firearms and equipment so inexpensively available south of the border. Indeed, it was feared that they would be armed primarily with breech-loaders, so it was deemed imperative that as many as possible of the Militia's muzzle-loading Enfield Pattern 1853 Rifle Muskets be replaced with Breechloaders.

Although the full-scale invasion envisioned by the Fenians never materialized, they did launch several military incursions into Canada, and a number of battles and skirmishes were fought, with fatalities and casualties on both sides. If you are interested in this obscure part of Canada-US relations, check out these links:
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_raids
- http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/articles/fenians
- http://www.historynet.com/fenian-raids-invasions-of-british-ruled-canada.htm

One of my military impressions for GAF and similar activities is a Sergeant of the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada ..... albeit circa 1885. I may now have to chronologically expand that impression to circa 1866, because the QOR was one of the Canadian Militia Battalions armed with Spencer rifles during the Fenian Raids. Here is a period photo of a QOR Rifleman -

Herbert · February 25, 2012, 02:16:41 PM

Your historical reserch will be very welcome here,from what I have found any 1865 Spencer rifle is most likly a Canadian Spencer,from the records I have found is at least 1300 Spencer 1865 rifles(posibly up to 2000)was bought by the Canadian goverment and 2000 1865 Spencer carbines

Two Flints · February 25, 2012, 02:27:31 PM

This link has additional information on Canadian Spencers. Rattlesnake Jack contributed much to the discussion.

http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=6731

Two Flints

RattlesnakeJack · February 25, 2012, 02:47:42 PM

Now that I have introduced myself, i am hoping some kind soul here can give me a bit of information on how the Model 1865 differed from earlier Spencers ..... The available information suggests that all (or certainly most) Spencers in Canadian service were Model 1865's.

Also, can someone clarify for me whether the reproduction Spencer rifles sold by Taylors (which they call Model 1865) differ in any material respect from those sold by Cimarron (which they - and the Chiappa Firearms website - refer to as Model 1860)?

Are the Taylors and Cimarron reproductions all manufactured by Chiappa, or is there another producer involved?

Herbert · February 25, 2012, 04:50:35 PM

Quote from: RattlesnakeJack on February 25, 2012, 02:47:42 PM
Now that I have introduced myself, i am hoping some kind soul here can give me a bit of information on how the Model 1865 differed from earlier Spencers ..... The available information suggests that all (or certainly most) Spencers in Canadian service were Model 1865's.

Also, can someone clarify for me whether the reproduction Spencer rifles sold by Taylors (which they call Model 1865) differ in any material respect from those sold by Cimarron (which they - and the Chiappa Firearms website - refer to as Model 1860)?

Are the Taylors and Cimarron reproductions all manufactured by Chiappa, or is there another producer involved?

The Cimarron and Taylor Spencer are booth made by Chiappa and are identical,they are not a copy of either the 1860 or the 1865 but have desighn fetures of the 1860,1865 & 1867 as well as a couple of there own production short cutts and desighn fetures.The differenc between the 1860 and 1865 Spencer is the frame on the 1865 is slitley norower and lighter and the top of the frame opening is rounded of,the 1860 is chamberd for the 56-56 cartridge,the 1865is chamberd for the 56-50,the end of the magizine tube on the 1865 is grooved ,the sights are diffrent and the 1865 has a spring acting on the extractor.Latter on the carbines were fitted with the Stabler cutt off,there are other small diffrences

Fox Creek Kid · February 28, 2012, 02:59:59 AM

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=25723.0

RattlesnakeJack · July 03, 2012, 10:32:51 PM

Although I am busy as a one-armed paperhanger trying to get ready for a Monday departure to attend next week's Grand Army of the Frontier Department of the Missouri Muster in Nebraska, I just had to take time off today to drive 70 miles west to pick up my .56-.50 Spencer rifle (Cimarron/Armi Sport) from the dealer who brought it in ....

YES .... I FINALLY HAVE IT!

Unfortunately, even though I have had loading dies, 250 Starline cases and lubed bullets (Lyman Mould 515139) waiting to use .... seemingly forever .... I may not find the time before I must leave to get some rounds loaded and then get to the range to try this l'il darlin' out ....

But I'll darn tootin' try!

RattlesnakeJack · July 04, 2012, 12:31:55 AM

Further to the above post, I understandably couldn't stop myself from taking more time off from my GAF DoM Muster preparations to set up my loading dies and load an initial seven rounds, to test cartridge feeding, etc.

But I seem to have a problem already! Am I out to lunch, or should the magazine hold seven cartridges? My initial test rounds have been loaded to what I gather is a minimal OAL of 1.5" (or slightly under that) but, even so, my magazine follower tube will only close and latch on six rounds.... and even then there is noticeable resistance to the follower tube going fully home and latching. Also, once closed and latched on six rounds, an attempt to chamber the first round often causes it to pop open again .....

On examination, it seems to me that the "stop rod" on the back of my cartridge follower may be too long, and is thus stopping the follower too far forward. There is clearly lots more room for further spring compression.

The "stop rod" of my rifle projects back 3 5/8" from the rear face of the follower (4 3/8" from the "fat" portion of the follower.) Has it been left too long?

Herbert · July 04, 2012, 01:20:15 AM

Remove the follower rod,it is just screwed in to comply with Italian laws of a 5 shot magizine

RattlesnakeJack · July 04, 2012, 01:36:34 PM

Thank you, Herbert! (I've launched myself on a whole new learning curve, I see .... $:-\$ )

Now ..... I note (with my "minimal length" cartridges, at least) that the magazine is just shy of accepting eight rounds, rather than seven ...... Has anyone ever tried shortening the follower plug just a bit on one of these reproduction Spencers to increase the magazine capacity by one extra round? I can foresee that doing so could cause other possible problems, but am curious if anyone has tried it and, if so, what was the outcome?

(I suppose one could turn a shorter follower plug easily enough to experiment, rather than messing with the factory plug .....)

RattlesnakeJack · July 04, 2012, 04:41:17 PM

Well ..... I just can't seem to quit "playing" with my new Spencer ....

Took a few photos of it, today:

Herbert · July 04, 2012, 05:43:55 PM

Quote from: RattlesnakeJack on July 04, 2012, 01:36:34 PM
Thank you, Herbert! (I've launched myself on a whole new learning curve, I see .... $:-\$ )

Now ..... I note (with my "minimal length" cartridges, at least) that the magazine is just shy of accepting eight rounds, rather than seven ...... Has anyone ever tried shortening the follower plug just a bit on one of these reproduction Spencers to increase the magazine capacity by one extra round? I can foresee that doing so could cause other possible problems, but am curious if anyone has tried it and, if so, what was the outcome?

(I suppose one could turn a shorter follower plug easily enough to experiment, rather than messing with the factory plug .....)

If you shorten the follower you allso have to lenthen the tube slot to alow the follower to move foward enough to positiond the last cartridge so it will feed properly.I modifyed my Spencer rifle so tit would feed cartridges up to 1.7 inches,so I lenthened the magizine slot (booth ends)and shortened the follower to suit so it would acept 7 cartridges,this was easy for me as I had a original Spencer to take measurments off.I have found if there is troubl with the AS Spencer ,just measure the geometry of the original and change the AS Spencer to these dementions and every thing will work as it should(much smoother

RattlesnakeJack · July 04, 2012, 08:26:31 PM

Thanks Herbert.

I was assuming that the follower spring wasn't being fully compressed, and that there accordingly would be room for it to move back further if the rear shank of the follower was reduced in length. However, on putting seven cartridges into the magazine tube with it removed from the butt, I see that the spring is pretty much at full compression, so my harebrained idea wouldn't fly, anyway ..... $:-\$

U.S.M.R. · July 06, 2012, 11:56:05 AM

I hope you like yours as much as i like mine. With the fast twist and short bullet I use #2 alloy to prevent stripping. Also I broke the top front edge of the breechblock. The sharp edge will catch the bullet and prevent feeding, a slight radius prevents this. I know it took a while for you to get your Spencer and I am glad for you.

PJ Hardtack · July 07, 2012, 10:03:56 AM

It is unseemly to drool, but I am ......

I'm looking for a 56-50 carbine, and since I'll be shooting 'Frontiersman', it will be my main match rifle.

I did find a gussied up Confederate commemorative model - gold plated, engraved, etc., but it would have been a crime to shoot it, especially with BP.

Shenandoah · July 07, 2012, 08:07:15 PM

Quote from: PJ Hardtack on July 07, 2012, 10:03:56 AM
It is unseemly to drool, but I am ......

I'm looking for a 56-50 carbine, and since I'll be shooting 'Frontiersman', it will be my main match rifle.

I did find a gussied up Confederate commemorative model - gold plated, engraved, etc., but it would have been a crime to shoot it, especially with BP.

It was a crime to plate it and have it engraved.

PJ Hardtack · July 21, 2012, 08:44:11 PM

What are the rates of twist in repro 56-50 Spencer carbines and rifles?

I'm reading a lot of bumpf on the net re: twist rates in the various available calibres; what works and what doesn't with 375 and 425 gr bullets in the 56-50, poor accuracy with the .45 Colt and good accuracy with the 44-40, etc., etc.

Before I invest in one, what's the real scoop?

Herbert · July 22, 2012, 03:03:32 AM

The 56-50 rifle has a 1in 20 inch twist rate ,the 56-50 carbine has a 1 in 26 inch twist.The 44-40 has a 1 in 36 twist which is perfect for the 200gr bullet and with it it shoots very well indeed, longer bullets do not work as well,I have no experince with the 56-50 carbine but others have reported good acuracy.I have a 56-50 rifle with a 1 in 20 twist rate and I can not get any acuracy with short 350gr bullets,I can get good acuracy with 450 gr bullets .but at the cost of very little powder(33gr).To me this is unexceptable, so I had the barrel relined to a 1 in 36 twist rate,now I can shoot the shorter Lyman340gr bullet with very good acuracy and compress 45gr of FF BP under the bullet.I am a lot more paticular about acuracy than most and will not put up with a rifle that can not shoot as well as the one made over 100years ago that it is trying to copyi

PvtGreg · July 22, 2012, 05:11:34 PM

Hi PJ,

The load I use is the following for long range:
- Starline 56-50 brass or cut down 32 gauge brass.
- 350gr from a RCBS-82309 bought from Montana Bullet works
- 9.2 gr Trail Boss.
- My loaded OAL is 1.58 inches. Using a 350gr from the RCBS-82309 slightly compresses the Trail Boss.
I consistently get (benched) 6in groups at 100 yds, 10in groups at 200 yds and 18in groups at 300yds with this load. After reading Herbert's post I'm now thinking of trying 450s to see if the groups tighten up at 200 and 300. Also FYI - there's considerable drop at 300yds as you all may imagine!

The load I use is the following for cowboy:
- Starline 56-50 brass or cut down 32 gauge brass.
- 350gr from a RCBS-82309 bought from Montana Bullet works
- 8 gr Trail Boss. At my OAL there's some wiggle room in the case.
Since you're shooting Frontiersman at a Cowboy match the groupings you will get shooting at Cowboy distances isn't going to affect you much if at all. When I shoot Frontiersman, I use 777, but I mostly shoot Classic Cowboy with Trail Boss.

However for long range you may want to consider Trail Boss.

Pvt Greg

PJ Hardtack · July 22, 2012, 08:33:14 PM

Thanks, gentlemen!

I wonder why the difference in rates of twist betwixt the carbine and the rifle? Someone oughta tell Chiappa (or whoever) to get their act together and listen to their customer's experience. What about the Spencers in .45 Colt?

I've got five Shiloh rifles, so I appreciate accuracy in a rifle. Four are .50 calibre - two percussion and two 50-70. I cast both Rapine 375 gr and Lyman 515141 425 gr bullets. The Military Rifles rifles (Farmingdales) have 1 x 36" rate of twist and stabilize both. The 50-70 carbine (newest) has 1 x 26" and also stabilizes both, but it's much more comfortable shooting 375s. Oddly, it has a left hand twist.

I recently had a Gallagher carbine relined to .50 and it stabilizes both bullet weights with it's puny 45-50 gr charge. I'm getting tired of working out the bugs in rifles to get them to perform as expected.

Pvt Greg - actually, I've only shot 'Frontiersman' once at a match and thanks to couple of brain farts placed 2nd in the category. Two other guys from our club placed 1st and 3rd. We hold an annual 'Frontiersman' match at our club as well.