Rules Clarifications????

[Bugscuffle]

I went to the SASS rules book page and sent an E-mail to the address shown asking for clarification on rules, but I have received no answer. Just today I wrote to the administrations office of SASS asking who I could E-Mail and ask for rules clarifications. I figured that I might as well ask you folks as well.
1. Are either cartridge slides or cartridge loops on suspenders legal? If you can have them on a belt, why can't you have them on your suspenders?
2. Does the restricion on having the ends of bandoleers secured apply to all bandoleers or only to those that are carrying ammunition to be used in reloads during a stage? In other words if you are wearing the bandoleer just for decoration does it have to have the ends free?
3. Is a Sam Brown belt considered a bandoleer and can it have cartridge loops or a cartridge slide?

[Fingers McGee]

I went to the SASS rules book page and sent an E-mail to the address shown asking for clarification on rules, but I have received no answer. Just today I wrote to the administrations office of SASS asking who I could E-Mail and ask for rules clarifications. I figured that I might as well ask you folks as well.
1. Are either cartridge slides or cartridge loops on suspenders legal? If you can have them on a belt, why can't you have them on your suspenders?
2. Does the restricion on having the ends of bandoleers secured apply to all bandoleers or only to those that are carrying ammunition to be used in reloads during a stage? In other words if you are wearing the bandoleer just for decoration does it have to have the ends free?
3. Is a Sam Brown belt considered a bandoleer and can it have cartridge loops or a cartridge slide?

OK, I'll jump in here.  One of the basic rules in the Shooters Handbook is 'if it isn't specifically allowed - It's not allowed:

IMHO, the Shooters handbook is pretty clear:
• Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the
shooter's person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be
safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are
acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo
belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be
carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,
cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.
• Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement).

Cartridge or shotgun slides are acceptable on the belt.  Suspenders are not mentioned - therefore, not allowed.  

Bandoleers must be loose and not secured.  Handbook doesn't say anything about whether it's used or not - it must be loose, not tied down.  

A Sam Brown Belt is not a bandoleer - it's a Sam Brown Belt that is secured at the end, If it were a bandoleer, it would have to be loose, not secured.

[Bugscuffle]

 

OK, I'll jump in here.  One of the basic rules in the Shooters Handbook is 'if it isn't specifically allowed - It's not allowed:

IMHO, the Shooters handbook is pretty clear:
• Ammunition required for reloads during the course of any stage must be carried on the
shooter's person in a bandoleer, cartridge/shotshell belt loop, pouch, holster, or pocket or be
safely staged as required by stage instructions. Leather belt slide ammo loops are
acceptable; however, shotgun shell slides may not be worn over shotgun loops on an ammo
belt. Shotgun loops must be in a single row. Rifle and revolver ammunition may not be
carried in a shotshell loop. No ammunition may be carried in the mouth, ears, nose,
cleavage, or any other bodily orifice.
• Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design (e.g., bandoleers must
be loose and not secured in any way to prevent movement).

Cartridge or shotgun slides are acceptable on the belt.  Suspenders are not mentioned - therefore, not allowed.

I have to disagree with you on that one pard. Suspenders ARE allowed even though they are not mentioned in this section. If I can put cartridge loops on my belt it seems natural to me that I could put them on my suspenders.

Bandoleers must be loose and not secured.  Handbook doesn't say anything about whether it's used or not - it must be loose, not tied down.  

A Sam Brown Belt is not a bandoleer - it's a Sam Brown Belt that is secured at the end, If it were a bandoleer, it would have to be loose, not secured.

And because it is not a bandoleer and is a "belt" I should be able to add cartridge loops to it.

[Tricky Trina]

The SASS RO Committee ruled that carrying ammo in suspenders is not an approved method of carrying ammo.  It may not be written in the rule book, but it has been stated on the SASS Wire.  If you really want a response from the RO Committee, put your post on the SASS Wire and you can usually get a response from Palewolf or Snakebite.  I imagine the ladies at the SASS office aren't up on all the shooting rules.  I don't know what a Sam Brown belt is, but I'm sure gonna find out.  I do know that you can put a shotgun and/or cartridge slide on any belt as long as it's within specs. 

Have fun!

[Jefro]

1. Are either cartridge slides or cartridge loops on suspenders legal? If you can have them on a belt, why can't you have them on your suspenders?
No ammo may be carried on suspenders, in loops or on a slide

2. Does the restricion on having the ends of bandoleers secured apply to all bandoleers or only to those that are carrying ammunition to be used in reloads during a stage? In other words if you are wearing the bandoleer just for decoration does it have to have the ends free?
If want to secure a bandoleer only for decoration that's fine, but don't have any ammo in the loops. Plus I would inform the MD and RO before the match to avoid being questioned.

3. Is a Sam Brown belt considered a bandoleer and can it have cartridge loops or a cartridge slide?
The Sam Brown belt would fall under the same rule as a a bandoleer, no ammo on the belt.

Howdy Bugscuffle, This topic has been discussed many times on the SASS wire. Go to the SASS wire and use the "search" feature, type in  bandoleer or suspenders, and you will come up several threads on simular topics. Remember SASS deletes threads after 30 days, so if you find something you want to save make sure to copy the text to a word file. For the best results just ask your questions to PW on the SASS wire and I'm sure Pale Wolf Brunell will respond. When you read Pale Wolf's replies his official word will be in bold blue Good Luck

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[LoneRider]

There was someone who was MDQ'ed at EOT last year who was carrying ammo on suspenders, so I would say NO you can't do it whether you intend to use them or not!

[Jefro]

There was someone who was MDQ'ed at EOT last year who was carrying ammo on suspenders, so I would say NO you can't do it whether you intend to use them or not!

Howdy LoneRider, if this is the one you're thinking of the shooter was not DQed. The OP gave a very one sided view of the real deal, happens way to much with keyboard cowboys, ie.."I heard" "so and so told me" "I was there". Checkout PW's reply at post #100 for the real story. The shooter had the option of either wearing the rig unsecured, or removing the ammo from the loops. Good Luck
Is this rig legal?

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Tall Dark Slim]

Very interesting read. You'd think that cowboy would be less apt to be an equipment race as the equipment supposedly ceases to evolve. I guess it's best to just shoot and have fun with it. It's crazy how vastly different the sides to the story were. I'd have to say it definitely fell somewhere in between friendly discussion and heated DQ threats atleast by one side. The shooter pulling out of the competition tells a story in itself. I took the liberty of skimming the EOT 2011 results and found a Lightning Buck Mcgra... Who was doing well on several of the stages and then poof a slew of 999's. Obviously some toes were stepped on somewhere. Perhaps he didn't like being made to feel as though he was cheating...who can say?

It would appear best not to skirt the rules if the place you're hanging out has those that live to quote the rule book or it's a high level/national match.

[Jefro]

I'd have to say it definitely fell somewhere in between friendly discussion and heated DQ threats atleast by one side.

It would appear best not to skirt the rules if the place you're hanging out has those that live to quote the rule book or it's a high level/national match.

There was no threats of a DQ, the feller was given an option. We all face a DQ if we use something not approved. The OP did not have all of the story, only what "he said she said" The person that dealt with the shooter directly was PW, he is the spokesman for the rules committee. PW is fine cowboy and asset to the game, he only quotes the rules not his opinion. Check post #100 for the what really happened one on one, between the shooter and PW, not  what "he said she said". IMHO the shooter was given a fair and simple option to continue, all he had to do was untie the holster tiedowns or remove the ammo from the loops, then shoot and have fun. Good Luck

"1) Simply untie the holster tiedowns (he was NOT told he had to "cut them off")...I was not aware that the rig was difficult to use without the holsters being secured.

2) Simply remove the ammo from the loops while 'on the line' "


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Tall Dark Slim]

I do not know any of the parties involved nor was I there and do not dispute the good character of either party . I'm just saying it appears deeper than one side or the other is letting on and perhaps both parties didn't take it easily. If it was as simple as what you said, then why didn't the competitor finish the match? Had you told me to untie my holsters or remove a few bullets as politely as described at a national match in order to conform to the rules... No problem, thank you for the heads up, change the equipment to conform and carry on. If I were shamed, ostracized or berated for doing it that way and my match continuation was threatened....I can see where the flame of competition would be doused in someone and they might withdraw or get otherwise upset.

I'm not saying you're wrong or anybody's a bad person; just that it appears to have more to it.  Bottom line is that national championships are important to everyone that attends and the rules MUST be enforced to the letter. All interpretations from officials should also be put in writing for all the competitors to reference at anytime and no incident that causes a precedent should result in an on the spot penalty unless it is called during the stage by the RO. Match officials should refrain from calling penalties unless they are acting as the RO for the stage as this undermines the authority of both the stage RO's and the appeals process.  Other shooting sports have decrees issued by rules gurus and only uspsa seems to put them up for reference on the web.

[Bugscuffle]

Come on Pards, I know that I have a reputation for stirring the pot, but this time I really wasn't trying to start any arguments. If it's against the rules, then it' sagainst the rules, enough said. I only asked a simple question. I didn't propose any rules changes nor was I trying to bend a rule.

[Jefro]

Match officials should refrain from calling penalties unless they are acting as the RO for the stage as this undermines the authority of both the stage RO's and the appeals process. 

Pard yer reading to much into what others have speculated second and third hand, even the OP was not there, he's just expounding on what he heard,  "he said she said". PW was there and the one that talked to the shooter. I can assure you PW is an easy going feller and knows how to be diplomatic in most any given situation, he does this all over the country. He did not DQ him or threaten to DQ. He simply told him what he could do to AVOID a potential future SDQ. If the feller wanted to continue on as is PW would not have said beans about it, he was just trying to help the feller avoid a possible penalty. The feller could still use the rig with a minor adjustment. If it was me I would thank him. Good Luck

"As I was 'making the rounds' on the range, I noticed the ammo in the loops and the tied down holsters (which, BTW, DOES constitute a secured bandolier under the rules), I stopped to ask him if he was using the ammo for stage reloads; and, if so, he could still use the rig to AVOID a potential future SDQ for "use or presence of illegal items"



Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Jefro]

Come on Pards, I know that I have a reputation for stirring the pot, but this time I really wasn't trying to start any arguments. If it's against the rules, then it' sagainst the rules, enough said. I only asked a simple question. I didn't propose any rules changes nor was I trying to bend a rule.

Howdy Bugscuffle, sorry bout that, I did not intend for the use of that thread to be the cause of a highjack. I simply thought it was a good example because of the unusual equipment, like the Sam Bass belt you asked about. I'm sure myself and many others had never heard of a Sam Bass belt, I had to google it. I think the main reason for not allowing ammo secured that high on the body is it may be seen as an unfair advantage, especially with shotgun reloads, since all ammo secured on an ammo belt must be from at or below the belly button. Good Luck
Shooters Handbook page #10
• Ammo belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Tall Dark Slim]

Yeah sorry Bugscuffle didn't mean to hijack. Sam Browne belt is the gunbelt with the shoulder cross strap.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Browne_belt
Jefro,
Thanks for the explanation, I believe it. I'm gonna relax and enjoy now without any ruffled feathers hope I didn't ruffle anyone else's.

[August]

Bugscuffle, what's your twenty?

We need to hook you up with a Black Badge who can help you with your immersion into SASS.

[John Smith]

Bugscuffle, what's your twenty?

We need to hook you up with a Black Badge who can help you with your immersion into SASS.

I believe he said he was in San Antonio.

[Bugscuffle]

Thank you all very much, but i am well hooked up with the local clubs and in touch with the BIG KAHUNA at one of our locals, so I'llsee youon the firing line pards.