better assult rifle Henry or Sharps?

[cactus joe]

I was watching a epsiode of pawn stars this weekend, and their plan was to to buy a gattling gun, but thye couldn't afford it, so instead they decided on getting a sharps rifle, but as the gun shop owner was giving background info as to the history of the sharps use in the civil war and after, he stated the sharps was the 1st and best assult rifle during the civil war. It kind of surprised me because i always thought that honor went to the Henry or even maybe the spencer. I not up on Sharps, so i may be wrong but aren't they single shot long range guns. I would think a weapon  that has multiply shots and fast fire capabilty which of course the Henry has would be a better choice.  cj

[Will Ketchum]

I saw that episode Since by definition an assault rifle shoots an intermediate cartridge (between a full battle rifle round and a pistol round) capable of select fire.  None of them fit that.

With that said during an attack I would probably prefer the Henry or the Spencer to the Sharps.

Will Ketchum

[Marshal Deadwood]

I'm a Sharps man, but I wouldn't consider them a good choice as an assault rifle.

But again in the Indian Wars and such, the Springfield Trapdoor I suppose was an assault rifle ?

Deadwood

[cactus joe]

will k, what did you think of the gattling gun? never seen one that glistening before. looked like a Henry rifle on streiods.

[Will Ketchum]

will k, what did you think of the gattling gun? never seen one that glistening before. looked like a Henry rifle on streiods.

I really like the Gatling and have fired several over the years.  I certainly wouldn't call it an assault rifle any more than a Ma Duse (M2 Browning heavy machine gun in .50 caliber is)

I realize I was being nit picky in my previous post but I have been taking issue with the term "assault rifle" since the Clinton years.  An AR15 is no more of an assault rifle than a Winchester Mod. 100 or  Remington 742.

Will Ketchum

[cactus joe]

i undersiand the term assult rifle can mean many things to different people. still i've seen it written in nurmerce articiles that the henry was considered the 1st so called assult rifle, and to hear these  experts say the sharps was the 1st and most popular one used in the civil war, i thought it was surpising, I wonder if anyone knows how many sharps were used in the war. I doubt if more were used trhen the Henrys and spencers.

[Abilene]

I saw that one, too.  There is a lot of cool stuff on that show and a fair amount of misinformation as well.  One of their so-called experts that was commenting on a nickled 1880's SAA was a real idiot.

[Trailrider]

OK, here's my definition of an "assault rifle": It is an arm capable of a markedly higher rate of fire, though with a generallly lighter or smaller round than a "main battle rifle" currently in general issue at the time. During the Civil War, the "main battle rifle" was generally a .58 caliber muzzleloading rifle musket, either a Springfield M1861 or M1863 or the British Enfield of similar characteristics. The general ammunition for both was a 500+ gr. Minie' hollowbased bullet propelled by a 60 gr charge of BP. IIRC the rate of fire from an experienced infantryman under battle conditions was about 4 rounds per minute or less. Standard combat load was 60-100 rounds.

The Henry Repeating Rifle M1860 fired a .44 Henry Rimfire cartridge containing a 225 gr bullet backed by 26 grains of BP. But its rate of fire was much higher, depending on how fast you could work the action.  Magazine capacity was about 16 rounds.  While it could shoot as far, nor packed as hard a punch, its volume of fire more than made up for it in an attack.  The Henry was available only with a 24-inch barrel, which is not as handy as a true carbine, but the magazine carried more rounds.  The magazine could be reloaded fairly easily while lying prone.

The Spencer only carried seven rounds in its magazine, and the hammer needed to be cocked after working the lever. The round consisted of a .54 caliber bullet of around 385-410 gr, depending on the brand of ammo, with a 42 gr charge of BP.  Although only having a seven-round magazine the Spencer could be reloaded using a Blakesley loaded. (However, few of those were available, and generally rounds were carried in cartridge boxes singlely.)  The Spencer was available in both rifle and carbine, but the magazine capacity was the same.)  The Spencer is simpler and less delicate. With a pocket knife, you can disassemble the breech and wipe out fouling or mud and reasemble it quickly.  Can't do that with a Henry.

Which was better?  Depends on what was available. Both were certainly better than the single-shot muzzleloader.  Yes, there were other carbines, including the Sharps, but all were single shot, and had a slower rate of fire than the repeaters. Personally, I would have preferred a Henry, but only if others in my outfit had them so that I could use their ammo if necessary!

Fast-forward to WWII, and compare the M-1 Garand to a Thompson or M3 Grease Gun. Great rfile, the M-1, but at close range, I'd rather have a Grease Gun or Thompson. Nowadays, most of the main battle rifles are also assault rifles because of ful lauto capability. Unfortunately,  the 5.56 round is not as capable of long-range and better penetration.

[Queasy Dillo]

Fast-forward to WWII, and compare the M-1 Garand to a Thompson or M3 Grease Gun. Great rfile, the M-1, but at close range, I'd rather have a Grease Gun or Thompson. Nowadays, most of the main battle rifles are also assault rifles because of ful lauto capability. Unfortunately,  the 5.56 round is not as capable of long-range and better penetration.

The Thompson and the M3 are submachine guns.  Different animal altogether - plus, .45ACP is a pistol cartridge rather than an intermediate.  The closest the U.S. came to fielding an assault rifle in that era was the M-1 carbine, and that didn't really qualify until the introduction of the M2 and a select-fire capability. 

Sort of the clip v. magazine debate, I suppose.  Clip means something.  Magazine means something else.  There's a generally-understood meaning for 'assault rifle' and regardless what the geniuses on television may say it's not applicable before about 1944. 

That's my two bits.  I'll go rain on somebody else's parade now.   

[Gassaway]

I think custers men would argue that point about there trapdoors vs natives with 1860 &1866 firing st them. I bet they thought the natives had the assault rifles

[Tall Dark Slim]

I'd go with the Henry for the rate of fire which can be there when you needed it. If you get in a spot with a sharps you're in a spot and probably won't be able to raise your rate of fire significantly enough to make up for being out numbered. I do believe the 1st and 2nd sharpshooters did use .58 minie balls when their ammo ran short. None of the other weapons had that ability. The spencer offers improved fire power, but the necessity to cock it everytime the weapon is reloaded slows things down a bit. The Henry had the combat panic button of the day 16 rds at the disposal of a single shooter and from a position of cover a company of men so equipped could hold off a vastly larger force.

[Marshal Deadwood]

I think custers men would argue that point about there trapdoors vs natives with 1860 &1866 firing st them. I bet they thought the natives had the assault rifles

Stupidity cant  be overcome even with the best assault rifle.

[Trailrider]

I think custers men would argue that point about there trapdoors vs natives with 1860 &1866 firing st them. I bet they thought the natives had the assault rifles

He shoulda called for an airstrike...danger-close!

[matt45]

something else to consider- self contained metallic round that handles the elements and abuse much better.  I weigh in on the simularity w/ submachine guns vs. assault rifles.  Both the 44 rimfire and 56-56 are closer to 9mm and 45 than to 7.62 X 39 or 5.56.  Come to think of it, a Henry and a Thompson wouldn't be a bad comparison.

[Books OToole]

He shoulda called for an airstrike...danger-close!

Once upon a time at co-worker showed me a picture he took in Viet Nam of the 1st Cobra gunship he saw.  The shot was taken head on to show how narrow the helicopter was.  But what impressed me was the subdued 7 over the crossed sabers on the nose above the chin mounted gatling.

Books

[Tall Dark Slim]

Once upon a time at co-worker showed me a picture he took in Viet Nam of the 1st Cobra gunship he saw.  The shot was taken head on to show how narrow the helicopter was.  But what impressed me was the subdued 7 over the crossed sabers on the nose above the chin mounted gatling.

Books

7th Cav over a gatling gun...Ironic?

[Coffinmaker]

The Henry was the grand daddy of American assault rifles.  It was however, never used in that capacity.  The Henry saw most service behind a barricade of some sort defending a line.
It (the Henry) was also not adopted by a Hide-Bound military that thought a true repeating rifle was a waist of ammunition.
The 7th Cav left their Gatling Guns behind.  Stupidity is often Fatal.

Coffinmaker

[matt45]

At the risk of sounding officious (I know, so what's new?) 
     If you've ever traveled the country between the tongue and the Little Bighorn it makes it easier to understand leaving the Gatling behind.  I'll give all my accord to stupidity being fatal, though- splitting a outnumbered command into 3 columns, attacking blind, and continuing w/ the whole mess when he could see that Reno was having troubles.  And what was with sending Benteen so far south- personality conflict would be my guess.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I like watching that pawn show for entertainment, but Rick does not know a whole lot about guns.

One time somebody brought in a nice old late 1880s Colt, and neither Rick nor his expert even checked out the action. They made a big deal about how old it was, but not one person cocked the hammer to see if it locked up properly. Then when they took it to the range to test shoot it, the expert loaded all six chambers and then lowered the hammer from half cock. So I take every thing Rick says about guns with a grain of salt. He does not even have a FFL, ever notice the only guns he deals in are antiques?

As far as a single shot rifle being considered an assault rifle instead of a fast shooting lever gun, what do you think?

[Gassaway]

I believe that the gatlins thast custer left behind were the 1 inch bore ones more akin to a true artillery piece anyhow. They were nothing like the ones you see in the movies. They were fixed on the carriage and the carriage had to be move to ajust sighting.