Best holster for CAS today?

Cliff Fendley · February 06, 2012, 08:32:24 PM

It has four wheels and a windshield, it kind of looks authentic

outrider · February 07, 2012, 07:15:18 AM

Cliff, your a card for sure...but I agree with you on this one

1961MJS · February 07, 2012, 10:15:57 AM

Hi

I remember reading an article or post on holster cant. I seem to remember reading that the fastest and safest cant is muzzle forward possibly with the holster a little forward of your hip. This was supposed to allow your had to grip the pistol correctly and get the muzzle up and level the fastest, without accidentally shooting yourself in the foot.

John Wayne's guns appear to be behind his hip with the grip forward. I think this is called the FBI cant.

So, what is the fastest safe NCOWS holster and holster cant?

By the way, I searched this sight and the internet and was unable to work out where I found this "information".

On a side note, I'm ordering a shoulder holster from Black Hills, previously listed on THIS THREAD. I've been wanting a good vertical holster with horizontal mag carriers for my full sized 1911, so this thread has been well worth reading for me. I can "fast draw" my 1911 from a strong side belt holster in my Subaru's bucket seats in a little under 2 minutes, and the mag carrier ripped the other side about 2 years ago.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

Boothill Bob · February 07, 2012, 12:21:37 PM

This rig have a (correct me if I'm wrong Outrider) 8 degree Muzzle forward cant. Have not tried it live yet but its fast to draw and reholster.

//Boothill Bob

joec · February 07, 2012, 12:38:54 PM

Quote from: 1961MJS on February 07, 2012, 10:15:57 AM
Hi

I remember reading an article or post on holster cant. I seem to remember reading that the fastest and safest cant is muzzle forward possibly with the holster a little forward of your hip. This was supposed to allow your had to grip the pistol correctly and get the muzzle up and level the fastest, without accidentally shooting yourself in the foot.

John Wayne's guns appear to be behind his hip with the grip forward. I think this is called the FBI cant.

So, what is the fastest safe NCOWS holster and holster cant?

By the way, I searched this sight and the internet and was unable to work out where I found this "information".

On a side note, I'm ordering a shoulder holster from Black Hills, previously listed on THIS THREAD. I've been wanting a good vertical holster with horizontal mag carriers for my full sized 1911, so this thread has been well worth reading for me. I can "fast draw" my 1911 from a strong side belt holster in my Subaru's bucket seats in a little under 2 minutes, and the mag carrier ripped the other side about 2 years ago.

Later

Mike
Wichita KS

Here is my particular NCOWS holster and has no cant and think they can't have more than 10 deg but not sure. I know the trigger and gun have to be covered with no tie downs etc. This one Cliff Fendley made for me.

outrider · February 07, 2012, 02:57:00 PM

Boothill, Yes my friend it has an 8 degree muzzle forward cant. I have seen holsters with a cant of more than 10 degrees but I really don't think it helps that much. The 8 degree really feels very confortable and you can get the gun out and back into the holster easily.

McCrower · February 08, 2012, 06:27:55 AM

Thank you very much so far, all of you guys. A lot of interesting reading here, I have som studying to do before I decide which rig to go with. I understand that I know way to little to really understand what kind of holster that will work for me in CAS, especially when there is no competitions in my part of the country to attend. I am leaning towards contacting leatherworkers near me to build a rig myself, looks fun actually

But I think that there is really no holster that look authentic and is a "quickdraw" holster.. am I right?

outrider · February 08, 2012, 07:04:14 AM

The so called "Quick Draw" holster is a product of the B western movies....so it is authentic to that genre.....period correct holsters were built different...and were made to house and protect the revolver...

If you decide to build one your self I am quite sure the guys on your side of the big pond will give assitance with it...

Have fun

Slowhand Bob · February 08, 2012, 07:46:50 AM

Perhaps one of you guys remember where a link to the photo of that set of '49s in the little silver capped Slim Jims resides. It might have been in one of my old posts but the picture was lifted from PACKING IRON and had a pre-Civil War provenance but looked mighty sporty for such an old rig. There was a first cousin to the Slim Jims that was call a Missouri Skin Tight and these were made to be fast draw scabbords but I am not sure that they do actually go back to the CW guerillas as I have heard claimed. History of that guys? Some think that the holster is not fast draw if the gun isnt positioned at the lower end of ones reach and includes extreme frontal cut downs but the elements of a good draw are actually suitable to the high ride Slim Jim. As mentioned by some, the holster style that is currently the most popular has a moderate plus drop to it BUT just like so many other elements of our sport, this will tend to change from time to time due to the styles used by the current crop of champions. Think back to Chapman, John Shaw and some of those other earlier combat pistoleros who were shooting from more traditional rigs, they made those well designed high rides of the day smoke..

1961MJS · February 08, 2012, 10:54:01 AM

Hi

From a period correct AND a safe, but quick draw standpoint it seems that a 5-10 degree muzzle forward cant on the strong side, with the holster situated just forward of the hip is what's recommended. The holster should cover the trigger and most of the cylinder to protect it and to keep it from falling out.

It seems like the article I read placed a great deal of importance on the ability to get a correct grip on the gun before drawing it from the holster.

This seems like something I'd like to work on in the future.

later

Mike
Wichita KS

Cliff Fendley · February 08, 2012, 01:49:38 PM

Be careful putting period correct and strong side muzzle forward cant in the same sentence. Don't be mislead or be misleading. I've never found documentation or pictures of anyone carrying a gun in this manner in the old west. In fact does anyone carry one like that today?

Outrider is dead on, it mostly is what do you call period correct. What period are you talking? Do you mean what a real cowboy carried and could have worked in while carrying it or do you mean the look of the silver screen which was not really how it was?

The bottom line is the muzzle forward cant is an invention for modern fastdraw competition.

Regardless of what the silver screen and hollywood has depicted the fast draw did not exist in the "Real" old west to the degree people were building guns and rigs for it.

A muzzle forward cant holster is a push on being period correct even from the hollywood standpoint. The rearward cant was more often seen as the look on early B-Western fancy rigs as it was carried over from early turn of the century law enforcement rigs with the cant we normally see on our everyday carry holsters today.

Regarding the exposing of so much of the gun, if you look at the early Texas Jockstrap holsters around the turn of the century they started letting the gun ride high and exposing more of the gun. Still yet remember this was after the wild west as we think of it was tamed.

Here is a copy I made of an early Texas Jockstrap, the original was made by Holtzer of Llano Texas.

You'll notice the work of another famous Texas maker, S.D. Myers work from a few years later around 1920 favors the same characteristics of Holtzers work and much of Myers work had the forward cant we are used too today on our carry holsters. This forward cant and other features of the design led into the Tom Threepersons and later the Bill Jordan border patrol holster that most are familiar with. This is when you first notice hammer thongs and such to keep the gun from falling out of the holster. Those are not seen on period holsters in the old west.

S.D. Myers actually built the first Tom Threepersons holsters. Those were likely some of the first to commonly have the completely exposed trigger guard. Those had a forward cant like our modern carry holsters, remember these guns and those worn in the real old west had to be comfortable enough to wear all day.

The holster I call my Law Dog I designed with heavy influence on S.D. Myers work of the very early 1900's. You notice even more of the gun is exposed for a faster draw, this design is not period correct to the old west for those wanting authenticity yet it does meet NCOWS rules. This design was the transition between old west and hollywood rigs.

I little read on the history and evolution of law enforcement holsters is here.
http://www.gunblast.com/WBell_PoliceHolsterHist.htm

Just remember what they are referring too in that article as old west holsters are really holsters who's design didn't come along until closer to the 1920's.
Most people just don't know what gun leather really was like in the old west thanks to hollywood and then being somewhat unintentionally mislead by articles such as this.

Trailrider · February 08, 2012, 05:42:51 PM

"I've never found documentation or pictures of anyone carrying a gun in this manner in the old west."

Howdy, Cliff,
I HAVE seen a picture of a gent wearing a slim jim holster with the muzzle forward of the vertical! (Can't recall just where, however...) HOWEVER...I strongly suspect this was a crossdraw holster (open top, not a military) that was pulled around to the wearer's LEFT side so that in the image-reversal of the photo, it would APPEAR to be on his right side. I suppose a Philadelphia lawyer could use this to justify a muzzle-forward rig. Might require everybody who looks at such a person to imagine they are looking at a tin-type!

Cliff Fendley · February 08, 2012, 06:54:11 PM

Many old Slim Jim holsters often have a tenancy to lean that way as they had a narrow belt loop sewn on the back. Not necessarily a crossdraw holster or not necessarily even worn that way on purpose. I believe I could beat that Philadelphia lawyer by showing old Slim Jims and proving to the jury that many have a tenancy to hang that way anyhow. Especially those chicken skin rigs that didn't hold shape well.

Ima Sure Shot · February 09, 2012, 10:50:26 AM

One of my favorite photos showing an "unusal" holster of the old west is the one of, "Commodore Perry Owens, looking the part of the Wild West gunfighter. His rifle a Model 1875 trapdoor Springfield Officers Model; the Colt Single Action in an unusual holster rig." This is a quote from ,"The Peacemakers by R.L. Wilson page 161. All the experts told me, when I started to shoot NCOWS, They did not wear dropped rigs like that." Well, to make a long story short I am a short fat female with a short waist, and my holsters stick straight out if worn at my waist. Regardless of cant. Commodore Perry's rig appears to to be straight hang, but it is dropped. There are two rows of rather long cartridge loops above them. I like cliff, feel some of the cant and so forth was simple wear. And a lot of that would depend on the indiviual's body build.Celeste

Massive · February 09, 2012, 02:27:32 PM

When one says "period correct", not everyone has the same features in mind. Every detail of the leather, thread, machinery or hand skills, design, ornamentation, etc... is open to discussion. CAS is fundamentally not period correct, with it's emphasis on two handed, short stroke, race guns, no-power factor, etc... Mernickle's excellent Slim Jim rig is period correct where blending the Chapman and Slim Jim styles are concerned. What you can see comes close, what isn't so obvious you have to jump ahead 100 years for.

Back in "the period" Annie Oakley met her husband in a person to person shooting competition, and then went on to make her mark in the BB Wild West show. They don't seem to have thought of it, but CAS type shooting could have happened back then also. If it had, who knows what kind of features would have been developed as they were in the process of inventing so much of the technology we still rely on today. At times I like to think of it like that. It may not be exactly like the rigs of the day, but it should be in the spirit of what they might have had, had they be engaging the same game. Kydex seems like a stretch, but then you get into substitutions that are only there for durability and economy. It just goes on and on...

joec · February 09, 2012, 03:00:51 PM

Quote from: Massive on February 09, 2012, 02:27:32 PM
When one says "period correct", not everyone has the same features in mind. Every detail of the leather, thread, machinery or hand skills, design, ornamentation, etc... is open to discussion. CAS is fundamentally not period correct, with it's emphasis on two handed, short stroke, race guns, no-power factor, etc... Mernickle's excellent Slim Jim rig is period correct where blending the Chapman and Slim Jim styles are concerned. What you can see comes close, what isn't so obvious you have to jump ahead 100 years for.

Back in "the period" Annie Oakley met her husband in a person to person shooting competition, and then went on to make her mark in the BB Wild West show. They don't seem to have thought of it, but CAS type shooting could have happened back then also. If it had, who knows what kind of features would have been developed as they were in the process of inventing so much of the technology we still rely on today. At times I like to think of it like that. It may not be exactly like the rigs of the day, but it should be in the spirit of what they might have had, had they be engaging the same game. Kydex seems like a stretch, but then you get into substitutions that are only there for durability and economy. It just goes on and on...

I have to agree with this in that SASS, NCOWS, Fast Draw are really different sports with different criteria. While SASS has a B Western Class, strives for speed etc, NCOWS is more based on what was worn, used between 1865 and 1899 with a lot of emphasis put on being period correct. Some guns and modifications that are allowed by SASS isn't by NCOWS and the same applies to holsters, dress etc. I might add there is no fast draw in NCOWS either. Just different games really with different rules. The term CAS covers pretty much all of it under a single term but best advise is decide which group you will compete in and go by their rules.

Slowhand Bob · February 09, 2012, 03:56:35 PM

Guys if you will look at the top photo in the following link you will see the Packing Iron outfit that always impressed me as looking so far ahead of its time. High ride and well fitted holsters that are thought to be over a hundred years old and they still look hot to me! Remember, one can make the belt loop as two thin layers of leather housing a thin sheet metal skeleton that can be shaped to present the gun however you want it!

http://home.comcast.net/~gakracker/site/?/home/&PHPSESSID=f4737f754b0d492132a6f8fb8b121de6

Red Cent · February 09, 2012, 04:33:44 PM

I enjoy the era of movies like The Magnificent Seven. Steve McQueen's holster. TV series like The Virginian. James Drury's holster. Lawman. Peter Brown's holster.
I do not like the buscadero. I am aware it is a hollywood creation. The Johnny Ringo Rig looks good but it is not ergonomical for me.

I think we all agree that SASS is a personal fantasy. Our clothes, boots, hats, leather, and guns are a personal decision. As a life long competitor, my leather is built for efficiency and speed. I totally respect those who wear the "real" old west patterns along with the gear that the cowboys wore in bygone days. I love "Tombstone"and "Lonesome Dove". I play these plus Tom Selleck's western movies.

A funny thing about preferences. I hated the costuming in the lastest "True Griit". As noted, I prefer the clean look, where it be leather or clothes. May not be historical. Something about a "Bic" comes to mind.

WaddWatsonEllis · February 09, 2012, 09:27:30 PM

Hi,

This is an old pic, and I am putting it up for the new guys on the thread ... I took Will Ghormley's pattern and dropped the holsters 3" (i.e 6' total extra leather; 3" on both sides). But since the grips still did not drop below the level of the top of the belt, it still passes inspection ....

1961MJS · February 10, 2012, 08:22:45 AM

Quote from: Jefro on February 05, 2012, 02:03:31 PM
The most popular amongst the top guns is the Longhunter rig, neither of mine have the mexican loop. Another top of the line is the Evil Roy. There are plenty more just as nice that cost less, but you have to know where to look and what to look for, a good place to start is at local matches. A few things they have in common is they are very stiff, low cut, with a slight flare at the top, and they are fully lined. To many to list, but here's a few, and there are a bunch folks right here that make some fine leather. Good Luck
Longhunter
Evil Roy
Rio Bravo
Korupt Karl
Lonerider
Jefro Relax-Enjoy

Hi
I read this whole thread and in checking this post found that Black Hills Leather makes a decent looking set of Shoulder Holsters for Concealed Carry. I'd been looking at Galco etc, but Rudy at Black Hills makes pretty much exactly what I wanted. Vertical holster, horizontal Magazine carriers, all leather, and with belt loops. I now have one on the way, ordered February 9, 2012. Even though this isn't at all related to Cowboy action shooting, thanks for the help.

Mike
Wichita KS