Holster Qualification

[PJ Hardtack]

Because various LEO agencies have requested time on our indoor range, the club has made it mandatory that anyone shooting from the leather be 'holster qualified'. This isn't the Full Monte IPSC 'Black Badge', just the basics - straight finger draw, reholstering and muzzle control while the gun is in hand.
If you've ever seen a cop with a gun in hand, you'll know what I'm talking about .....

After some thought and discussion, it was passed last night that ANYONE shooting from the leather on ANY club range (indoors or outdoors) be so qualified. Each discipline is responsible for it's own people and general hand gunners will be required to avail themselves of the training.
This was deemed 'due diligence' on the part of the club in the event of an incident. The Coroner and the Insurer will ask questions as to why it was required in one area and not all.

This will not sit well with some, as most males past puberty consider themselves expert gun handlers. Having the money to buy guns does not make them safe or competent. We see that proven on a daily basis .....

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

So I guess this club has no plans on ever having outsiders attending any of there matches?

[PJ Hardtack]

Why do you ask? Were you planning on attending one of our matches in the central Cariboo Region of BC? We couldn't care less what other clubs do, we are practicing "due diligence" in accordance with our mandate.

What we are talking about here is the very basics. History has proven the need. A guest could be run through it in 15 minutes. If it was up to me, there would be a CAS equivalent of the IPSC Black Badge course. Since the founders of SASS were IPSC burn outs, it amazes me that it wasn't done from the get-go.
Just because we shoot Cowboy guns with the hammer down on and empty chamber is no excuse for poor gun handling.

The problem is greater in CAS than IPSC as we wear two guns, one of them often x-draw. CAS shooters are generally an older crew than the IPSC crowd and less agile.
We've had to modify stages to eliminate kneeling behind tables and other props as some couldn't get up unassisted and were fumbling with their guns trying to holster while nearly falling over.

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

My responce to your first question is maybe.  I've shoot in Courtenay, Mission and Rocky Mountain House so far and will adding Victoria and maybe Kamloops this summer.  sooner or later I hope to get around to all the CAS matches in western Canada.  At least those who welcome guest. 

I may be a bit thick but could you please tell me what you ment when you wrote, "History has proven the need."  I've been shooting SASS for a few years and have not heard of anyone shooting themself during the draw.  Now I'm not saying it hasnt happend just that I have not heard of it, have you? If so I'd like to hear the details so I could avoid their mistake and pass the lessons on to others.

   As I said I may be kinda slow but I can't guite figure out how yanking on the trigger of a single action pistols that has the hammer resting down on a empty chamber is going to cause an AD.  Now if you want to talk about making sure the RO watches the shooter as he draws to insure the hammer is not cocked until the pistol is pointed safely down range ( as the sass rule requier) I might be able to understand that concept.  But I can not see how compairing a cocked and locked 1911, a fully loaded sticker fired semi or even a double action revolver to  a single action is in anyway reasonable.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that published rules already exsit, and should be being enforced, at all SASS matches, ie hammer not cocked until firearm is pointd safely down range, in Wild Bunch, trigger finger outside of the trigger guard while moving, reloading or clearing malfunction once pistol is charge.  It seems to me that as far a CAS goes following the exsisting rules would solve your problem and not run off visitors.

But every club has to do what it thinks best for it's members.



p.s.  I have reached puberty but do know a little about safe gun handling and range operation.  I'm a  retired infantry NCO and  Deputy Sheriff and now am a firearms instructor at my state's police acadamy.

[PJ Hardtack]

COG

We do welcome guests, but as we are a small club and people save their gas money for the larger matches that offer prizes and trophies, so we don't see many. We have had no success generating interest in CAS at Prince George or Williams Lake. We were hoping to become the hub of the Central Interior for CAS.
Our unsupervised 500m rifle range and several pistols bays go largely unused. It is possible to go to the range and frequently have the place to one's self. If we get 12 shooters to a CAS or BP event, we are doing well.

I didn't say anything about anyone shooting them selves during the draw, did I? And I did cover the 'hammer down on an empty chamber' thing, didn't I? It would appear that your reading comprehension is not what it could be and you're looking for a fight. If so, look elsewhere.

If you mention the words "straight finger draw" to many CAS shooters, you will get blank looks. In view of your comment re: "I cannot see how compairing(?) a cocked and locked 1911, a fully loaded sticker(?) fired semi or even a double action revolver to a single action is in any way reasonable.", I believe that you may be among them.

For a start, in Wild Bunch, 1911s start with 5 rds in the mag, hammer down on an empty chamber - NOT cocked and locked. That is identical to the condition of a single action revolver. "Fully loaded" and "cocked & locked" applies to IPSC, not CAS. I have shot a 1911 (as per WB rules) in a club practice against SAs shooting wimp loads and there is no advantage over an adept shooter with a SA.

Even though we are not a SASS affiliated club, we do have SASS members and follow the SASS safety rules. There is no SASS requirement for adequate training of the type we are discussing. And didn't I say that we are not concerned with what other clubs do, we are practicing ''due diligence" as we see it? It made no sense to require holster training for the indoor range and not outdoors. We think that the Office of the Coroner, the RCMP and the Insurer would have the same opinion in the event of an incident.

We do have people showing up with handguns and holsters who had not had the benefit of ANY hand gun training. Muzzles are all over the place. Police are among the worst offenders and I have had occasion to run one off the range for walking towards me and another shooter while loading his 9mm!

You are not the only one with firearms and military training. I'm an ex-Regular Army NCO with 12 years service, shot into IPSC 'A' class first with a 9mm and then with a .45 ACP. It has been my pleasure and joy to teach many people to shoot, including several women, my wife included. She gets compliments on her gun handling; especially when holstering/reholstering her guns.

As for my statement re: males and puberty, it is my firm belief that women make better gun handling students and I've had that confirmed by current military instructors. They lack the make ego, do what you ask, have success and you reinforce it. Males will not listen until a women kicks their (_*_)s. Then you have their attention.

Your experience may differ.

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

My responce to your first question is maybe.  I've shoot in Courtenay, Mission and Rocky Mountain House so far and will adding Victoria and maybe Kamloops this summer.  sooner or later I hope to get around to all the CAS matches in western Canada.  At least those who welcome guest. 

I may be a bit thick but could you please tell me what you ment when you wrote, "History has proven the need."  I've been shooting SASS for a few years and have not heard of anyone shooting themself during the draw.  Now I'm not saying it hasnt happend just that I have not heard of it, have you? If so I'd like to hear the details so I could avoid their mistake and pass the lessons on to others.

   As I said I may be kinda slow but I can't guite figure out how yanking on the trigger of a single action pistols that has the hammer resting down on a empty chamber is going to cause an AD.  Now if you want to talk about making sure the RO watches the shooter as he draws to insure the hammer is not cocked until the pistol is pointed safely down range ( as the sass rule requier) I might be able to understand that concept.  But I can not see how compairing a cocked and locked 1911, a fully loaded sticker fired semi or even a double action revolver to  a single action is in anyway reasonable.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that published rules already exsit, and should be being enforced, at all SASS matches, ie hammer not cocked until firearm is pointd safely down range, in Wild Bunch, trigger finger outside of the trigger guard while moving, reloading or clearing malfunction once pistol is charge.  It seems to me that as far a CAS goes following the exsisting rules would solve your problem and not run off visitors.

But every club has to do what it thinks best for it's members.



p.s.  I have reached puberty but do know a little about safe gun handling and range operation.  I'm a  retired infantry NCO and  Deputy Sheriff and now am a firearms instructor at my state's police acadamy.

Hello  Crotchety, good to here from you again. Loved the photos that you took at Rocky.

You have to remember that this is Canada, and we have to micro manage everyone, it's part of our left wing culture and we are not happy uless we can impliment more laws, rules and regulations.   

I belonged to a club in Alberta that had a rule that only LEOs, ex or retired were exempt from the holster qualification.  That's why I carry my retirement badge and ID in my gun bag in case someone challenges me on it.

Take care.

[PJ Hardtack]

BCLD

Micro-management has nothing to do with it. We are concerned with safety.

We were approached by LEOs (Fisheries and Conservation officers) about renting our indoor range. A club director who happens to be an IPSC shooter made himself available to show them the facility - lights, heat, targets, etc. He stuck around to watch .....

He was horrified by the lack of concern for muzzle direction and the gun handling in general; people leaving the line 'hot', etc. They felt that since they carry 'hot', what's the sweat? While that may be true, we reserve the right to set the standard on our range.

In my IPSC days, we used to encourage LEOs to participate. We got many experienced PPC shooters and while they were exceptional shots, we turfed many for muzzle violations. They felt that since the gun was empty, it was OK to violate the 180* rule.
People who aren't IPSC or CAS shooters are showing up with holsters and guns, the sum total of their training being what they see on TV and in movies. Showing someone your new toy while others are out scoring and patching is not conducive to harmonious relations. The sound of a cylinder closing or a slide being operated sends chills up one's spine.

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

Hello  Crotchety, good to here from you again. Loved the photos that you took at Rocky.

Howdy Law Dog,  Ya like those head on out to Headquarters and Boomtown on the island this summer and I'll take some more.  That fiddle player form California (Mad Trapper From Rat River) is going be there with a few more yanks.   

p.s. ya sliced up any one eye'd rebs lately?

[Buffalo Creek Law Dog]

BCLD

Micro-management has nothing to do with it. We are concerned with safety.

We were approached by LEOs (Fisheries and Conservation officers) about renting our indoor range. A club director who happens to be an IPSC shooter made himself available to show them the facility - lights, heat, targets, etc. He stuck around to watch .....

He was horrified by the lack of concern for muzzle direction and the gun handling in general; people leaving the line 'hot', etc. They felt that since they carry 'hot', what's the sweat? While that may be true, we reserve the right to set the standard on our range.


PJ...I think you missed the sacasm.  Of course safety is paramount  I remember when I was stationed at North Bay back in the early 70's.  We decided to have a shooting contest and invite all the civilian LEOs in the area and they came from as far away as Thunder Bay, Sudbury, Center of the Universe aka Toronto.  We had RCMP, OPP, Municipal, etc.  Fireams handling by these forces was atrocious.  They were loading their revolvers behind the firing line facing in all directions.  We had to shut the shoot down until we ran a 20 minute course on firearms handling on a DND range.  After that, all went well.

Cheers!


In my IPSC days, we used to encourage LEOs to participate. We got many experienced PPC shooters and while they were exceptional shots, we turfed many for muzzle violations. They felt that since the gun was empty, it was OK to violate the 180* rule.
People who aren't IPSC or CAS shooters are showing up with holsters and guns, the sum total of their training being what they see on TV and in movies. Showing someone your new toy while others are out scoring and patching is not conducive to harmonious relations. The sound of a cylinder closing or a slide being operated sends chills up one's spine.

[PJ Hardtack]

BCLD

Thanks for that! It's exactly the point I was trying to make without putting anyone's nose out of joint.

I regret that over the years, the absolute worst gun handling I've seen was done by LEOs. They casually do things that would get your (_*_) kicked out of an IPSC or CAS match in short order. It is a mistake to presume that someone who carries a gun for a living is safe and knowledgeable. Likewise, firearms law. The last one to ask is a cop.

But it is just as much a mistake to make the presumption about civilians. I've been present during a 'safety meeting' at Hefley Creek when a lady near me pulled out one of her pistols and proceeded to check it, rotating the cylinder. Instead of embarrassing her, I quietly and quickly stopped her, telling her that I'd talk to her later.
As we dispersed, I told her that her guns came out of the holsters ONLY to load/unload under supervision and to shoot a stage.
Her husband had 'trained' her but was a little remiss on the safety issue.

This is the sort of thing we want to eliminate on our range.

[Charlie Bowdre]

Never could keep my mouth shut...
One of the things that bother me and the reason I support Holster Qualificaton  are the number of good rifle shooters who have no idea how to handle a sidearm.

I shoot with some great BPCR and range buddies who astound me with their lack of safety procedure when it comes to a session with a revolver or pistol Somehow all the training and common sense they have goes out the door and innocently , unintentionally they do not relate to the  the safety factor.

I now start all my range sessions with my long gun buddies by suggesting we go over the basic safety rules. This gives myself as well as they a small refresher.
I also start out by saying ' Now I'm not the smartest or brightest but I do knoe this revolver will kill you as easy as any long gun"
Seems to set the tone.
The odd time I get some smart comments or grumbling is from the ones I don't shoot with anymore. Seen too many bodies to want to see any more.
Now I'll shut up.
Thanks for listening.

[PJ Hardtack]

Dutchy

You're dealing with the 'good ol' boy' ego type that knows it all about guns in general. Remember what I said earlier about males over puberty? To even suggest that they may have some weak areas in their gun handling is akin to questioning their masculinity.