ATTN: River City John, Sgt. John Chapman, F Trooper or whoever....

Pitspitr · January 30, 2012, 08:03:00 PM

...might have an original or a photo of an original box label for a 20 box of ball .45-70-405. I want to try and get the color of the label right.

JimBob · January 30, 2012, 08:58:59 PM

Something to look at in the meantime

http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/3495287

Pitspitr · January 30, 2012, 09:32:54 PM

Thanks Jim. I thought the paper I have been using was too "yellow" The dates are a little new than the repro label I have. Maybe someone will have some from 1875 they may not be much different anyway.

JimBob · January 30, 2012, 09:46:42 PM

I looked in Pitman's Notes,quite a bit of difference between the labels on the 74 and 75 boxes and the later dated ones in the 80s.More information on the labels.LOL As I said,something to pass the time till you catch the right fellas eye.

FTrooper · January 30, 2012, 10:06:06 PM

I actually might have a high quality copy of one somwhere.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

FTrooper · January 30, 2012, 10:10:48 PM

I also used to have a source for museum quality reproductions of IWP cartridge boxes. Will see if I can find it again. I was able to get them three ways. Fully sealed with Ten X ammo, fully sealed for display (with or without dummys) and a version that when on the table looked good, but the box slid apart and was reusable.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

FTrooper · January 30, 2012, 10:17:07 PM

http://www.oldammo.com/labels.htm

These were originally commissioned for Fort McKavett. He owns several originals and say the bottom one is closer on color, the "yellowing: we associate with them more often than not are from age and the shellac they were coated in to "waterproof" them

Also don't forget http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/ammunition_01.htm

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_027.htm

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

River City John · January 30, 2012, 10:22:50 PM

I was going to add about that 'yellow' hue to the labels.

The paper, and the shellac used to coat the boxes, would naturally yellow over time. Makes them look like they started with yellow paper. As mentioned, for new labels, go for a cream or off-white and you probably wouldn't be far off.

RCJ

Pitspitr · January 31, 2012, 05:08:36 AM

Thanks guys. That's pretty much the color I thought they were but wasn't finding any pictures on the net. I'm going to print a few copies of the repro label for the boxes I have to refill but the only paper I had was a bright yellow. This will give me something to look for.
Thanks again

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 09:39:03 AM

This is something I have been working on as well. I have the label on my computer but short of hand cutting and assembling the cardbord boxes I am stumped for where to come up for them. Do any of you have sources for the boxes?

Pitspitr · January 31, 2012, 10:24:58 AM

As near as I know you have to hand cut and paste them. Chris might be able to add something to this.

Bow View Haymaker · January 31, 2012, 10:26:20 AM

I've taken modern factory boxes and carrfully cut the glued seem apaart, turn them inside out, and glue back together. I used a hot glue gun. then I print a label with the load data on it. I know they are not the same dimensions as originals and they have the foam or plastic tray, but they do have that old "chipboard" look. Maybean alternative to hand cutting the box. just add the more period label.

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 10:51:19 AM

I have a buddy with a computer controlled laser cutter. Let me see if I can figure out the pattern for one of these and run a pile through his cutter. The 1878 Ordinance memoranda provide us with a clear image of the label and the pattern for the cardboard dividers. I can probably figure out the box. I have dozens of images of surviving boxes on my computer. I should be able to figure it out. If anyone has original box dimensions it could save me some work.

FTrooper · January 31, 2012, 02:14:27 PM

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah...somewhere in my research files I DO have a complete template for them in .45-70 inside and out! Hopefully I can find them soon in all the file boxes. My home officer should be done by the end of Feb. (it was supposed to be done by Jan1, but the project snowballed).

As soon as I can get ahold of my files and have a place to sort them I can make some scans and such for general use.

Chris Fischer
F-Troop

Niederlander · January 31, 2012, 02:45:06 PM

Here's another silly question; Has anyone got information for .50-70 boxes?

JimBob · January 31, 2012, 04:39:59 PM

Quote from: Niederlander on January 31, 2012, 02:45:06 PM
Here's another silly question; Has anyone got information for .50-70 boxes?

All the links posted above have pictures of the .50-70 box labels.The most detailed information on boxes and box labels with measured drawings I have found is the Pitman Notes on U.S Martial Arms and Ammunition 1776-1933,Vol.3 and 5 deal with the trapdoors.They're out of print.Most of the box measurments are down to the thousdandth.Boxes are shown flattened out with the folds indicated and the dividers.

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 04:59:41 PM

Quote from: Niederlander on January 31, 2012, 02:45:06 PM
Here's another silly question; Has anyone got information for .50-70 boxes?

Here is an image I have been playing with in photoshop. I have most of the background noise removed from the photo of the original label I started with.

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 05:01:44 PM

Here is a photo of a front label.

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 05:09:29 PM

Here is the image I am working on in photoshop for 45-70. It is farther along than the 50-70 image.

G.W. Strong · January 31, 2012, 05:53:45 PM

I just made up a proof of concept box and it holds 20 rounds nicely. I need to tweek it a bit but it is close.