New guy - question regarding 44 wcf

[Kinchafoonee Kid]

Howdy, everyone; I'm a new guy with a few questions.  I'm purchasing a Winchester 73 in 44 wcf (44.40) and am working up a load.  I intend to use black powder and soft lead.  According to cimmaron arms, the groove diameter is .429.  Lyman bullet costing recommends a bullet one to two thousands over groove diameter.  Anyone have luck with a bullet sized to .430 or .431?  I'm looking at an old west bullet mould copy of the original which drops about .430 or .431.  What do y'all size yours? 

Also, what powde do you use? I shoot 1F and 2F goexin my sharps .45 2.4.  Thinking of using 2F or 3F goex or schuetzen.  Anyone have experience with shuezten?

Also bullet styles in .45 colt for us firearms?

I welcome all comments and suggestions.  Thanks in advance, JS.

[Abilene]

Howdy Josiah and welcome.

The most correct answer would be that you should slug your bore because dimensions do vary somewhat.  However, a lot of us end up shooting .429 bullets in our Uberti '73's.  Uberti 44-40 chambers tend to be very tight, and using a .430 bullet can cause chambering problems.  I started out using .430 and found that I could only use Winchester brass (thinnest case mouth), and even then some were hard to chamber.  .429's with soft lead should slug up well to fill the bore.  Using .429 bullets, I still can only use Winchester or Starline brass (or Black Hills, though I don't have many of those).  R-P, PMC, and others are too thick.  That has been my experience but I know a lot of others have had similar experiences.  The .429's do shoot just fine in mine in both BP and smokeless.  I have used 2F Elephant, 2F Goex, and Goex Cowboy, haven't noticed any difference.  I haven't tried Schuetzen but have heard good things about it.  As for the bullet you mentioned, check out the topics in this forum (or it might be in the 1873 forum), there have been some good discussions of 44-40 bullets.  If you are going to mold, there have been some very good bullets "invented" in recent years that are called "Big-Lube" and as you can imagine they hold a LOT of lube.  Lots of people use them with good results.  I am using a Black Dawge 2-groove bullet that doesn't hold a huge amount of lube but does fine in my 19" carbine.

A USFA single action should work well with almost anything you put in it, from the historic 250 grainer to 200gr or even smaller.  I use 250gr in my 45LC rifle but use 200gr in SAA's for a little less recoil.  Most folks shoot .452" bullets in their .45's but some like .454", especially in older guns that have overly large cylinder throats.  Drop a .452 bullet through the cylinder.  If it hangs up but you can push it through, it is good.  If it falls through, go to a bigger bullet.

[Lefty Dude]

My Uberti/Cimarron 19" carbine 44WCF slugs out at .428". I shoot .429's. I have tried .430's but the are tight to chamber. I use Goex fff & and a Grits filler. More ff & Less fff = same-O, Same-O.

Slug your bore for a better fit and preformance.

BTW; I have an early Uberti/Navy Arms Carbine in 44WCF and it is very tight. The barrel grooves are .426".

[litl rooster]

Less grits- more powder- bigger smile


I use a .429 big lube bullet now. When they are gone I will try the .428 for my uberti .  I don't cast and thats what I am able to buy from a recommended caster.  Schutezen powder is fine for Cowboy action loads. Some are using Diamondback also with good results. It saves a bunch of coins for them who shoot regular.  FFG is just fine.

Good luck

[w44wcf]

Josiah,
Welcome to the forum.  
If you are going to use Goex or Schuetzen, then you will need tbe extra lube capacity of DD's "Mav D" Big lube bullet
http://www.biglube.com
or the ACCURATE 43-215C http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png.

The standard bullets with two lube grooves do not have enough lube capacity to run for many repeated shots with either powder based on my testing.

Ideally, .001" over groove diameter I find is ideal....... although with a soft 8 or less BHN bullet that is groove diameter or slightly less will bump up to fill the barrel and give accurate shooting.

A bit more regarding '73 44-40 b.p. shooting here....
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,40683.0.html

w44wcf  

[Kinchafoonee Kid]

Thanks to all for the excellent advice.  Look forward to learning much from y'all.

[Dick Dastardly]

For reasons I can't explain, that link didn't open w44wcf.  Sometimes copy and paste doesn't work on my web site.  I think it's a security thing.  Anyway, try clicking on this. . . . . . .

http://www.biglube.com

Then, click on the bullets hot box and a drop down menu shows up.  Click on the Mav Dutchman and you will go to that page.

I have new manufacture Mav Dutchman molds back in stock now.

DD-MDA

[Noz]

I shoot the MavDutchman sized to .428 over KIK power with a dab of cream of wheat on the top.

forgot to mention that my MAV Dutchman bullets are all poured from straight wheel weights.

[44caliberkid]

I shoot the Mav- Dutchman sized to .428 also and highly recommend it for black powder.  The chamber dimension is the deciding factor in a Uberti, not the bore dimension.   They may use a .430 barrel but the chambering reamer is still 44-40 dimensions, made for a .427 bullet.  Anything over .428 will not chamber in my Uberti '66 and '73's.
   I use Graf Brothers 3F or 2F powder, which is a high quality, German made powder about in the middle of the price range.
   Again, get a Mav-Dutchman mold from Dick, you won't regret it.  You don't need wads or patches and can shoot 150 rounds through it without fouling out.  The first shot will be as accurate as the last.  I have Dick's Big Lube molds in .38, 38-40, .44, and two molds in .45 and they are just "the answer."

[Blackpowder Burn]

I have a Cimarron (Uberti) 73 and shoot the Mav Dutchman sized to 0.48" with 32 grains (by weight) of Goex FFg.  It's a tack driver.

I shoot the 250 grain Big Lube sized to 0.452 over the same 32 grains Goex FFg in my USFA 45 Colts.  Again, shoots great.

[Jefro]

Howdy Josiah, I use the Mav Dutchman sized to 429 in both 73 and Marlin, use about 32gr (2.2cc) of 2f Schuetzen. For the .45 revolvers I use a 200gr Big Lube with the Cowboy 45 Special brass and about 18gr (1.2cc) of 3f, works great. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Sod Buster]

Less grits- more powder- bigger smile

Breakfast food is fer eatin' not shootin' 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Historically 44-40 groove diameter has varied a bit over the years. I load and shoot 44-40 for five different lever guns. I have slugged them all, the the rifling grooves for all of them are either .427 or .429. 44-40 rifling has varied in the past from as small as .425 to up over .430, so bullet selection can sometimes be troublesome.

When I first started playing cowboy I was shooting an original Winchester Model 1892 made in 1894, chambered for 44-40. The bore was pitted from poor maintenance over the years, but the rifling was still strong. The rifling grooves were .427 in diameter. I was shooting Smokeless at this time and I was not casting my own bullets. The only commercial bullets I could find were either .427 or .429 in diameter, so I started loading 44-40 with .427 bullets. These worked fine in the Winchester.

When the Black Powder bug hit I had read that it was better to shoot BP in a shiny bore rather than an old pitted bore. The theory was the thousands of tiny pits would hold onto fouling more and it would be more work to clean the bore. So I picked up a used Uberti 1873. This gun was made in the 1980s and also had .427 rifling grooves. While I was working up my loads for it I tried .427, .428, and .429 bullets in it. As several have already reported, I found out that the gun would shoot all three diameters just fine, but .429 bullets expanded the case mouth enough that chambering was difficult in the Uberti's tight chamber. So I kept on shooting .427 bullets. I also have an old Marlin Model 1894, made in 1895, also chambered for 44-40. This one too has .427 rifling and responds well to .427 bullets.

Then a few years ago I bought an Uberti Henry. When I slugged it I found out the rifling was .429. I did not want to put bullets .002 undersize down the bore, so I compromised and standardized my 44-40 bullets at .428. I cast my bullets out of pure, dead soft lead, and the .428 bullets do fine in the Henry's .429 rifling. As others have suggested, I suspect my soft lead bullets are bumping up in the bore and filling up the rifling.

Most buyers of recent Uberti rifles who have slugged their bores are reporting that they are seeing .429 rifling in their barrels, so my modern Henry falls right in there. Lastly, last year I found a terrific Winchester Model 1892 Saddle Ring Carbine made in 1918 with a bore that looked like it just left the factory. This one also measures .429.

So my experience duplicates the experience of many here. I find that a .428 soft lead bullet works fine in rifling of either .427 or .429 in diameter. I also find that bullets as large as .429 can be tough to seat in a tight chamber. I used to use Winchester brass exclusively because it had the thinnest brass at the case mouth. About .007 thick. Winchester is spotty in production and their 44-40 brass can be difficult to find. Last year I ordered 500 44-40 cases from Starline and I have been happy to find that it too was right about .007 thick at the case mouth.

Another vote for the Mav-Dutchman 200 grain Big Lube bullet for 44-40. I lube mine with SPG.

I have been using Schuetzen FFg pretty much exclusively for the last few years. I find it burns cleaner than Goex, leaving less fouling in the bore. It cleans up quicker, with fewer patches and less elbow grease. This is because Schuetzen uses the same Alder charcoal that the more expensive Swiss powder uses. A better powder overall than Goex, but at almost the same price as Goex. The stuff Graf sells is really Schuetzen in Graf's bottle. Schuetzen is made by Wano in Germany.

Your actual charge of powder will vary depending what powder you use. Not all BP weighs the same. I have my Lyman Black Powder measure set to deliver 2.2CC of powder, no matter what brand is in the hopper. This delivers enough powder to be compressed by 1/16"-1/8" when the bullet is seated, which is just about right. The actual weight of 2.2CC of Schuetzen FFg is about 33 grains, as opposed to about 34.5 grains for FFg Goex.

[Short Knife Johnson]

I've been using 32 grains of Graf & Sons, Winchester case, WLP primer and a Lyman 427666 Bullet cast from wheel weights and lubed with SPG over a soda pop case card wad (slick side to the bullet).  They fall from the mould at .429, are run through a .429 lube/size die and shot in every .44 WCF I own from near new Uberti to a Whitney Kennedy.  No problem chambering and seems reasonably accurate in everything.

[w44wcf]

For reasons I can't explain, that link didn't open w44wcf.  Sometimes copy and paste doesn't work on my web site.  I think it's a security thing.  Anyway, try clicking on this. . . . . . .

http://www.biglube.com

Then, click on the bullets hot box and a drop down menu shows up.  Click on the Mav Dutchman and you will go to that page.
I have new manufacture Mav Dutchman molds back in stock now.

DD-MDA

DD,
Oops. My apologies. I corrected my post.  I should have checked the link after I posted it. Duh!

DJ,
Excellent post! Very informative!

w44wcf

[Kinchafoonee Kid]

Thanks again, everyone for he sage advice.  I should ave my uberti in a couple of weeks and look forward to using this advice.

JS