WW-231 in 44-40 UPDATE>

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Long ago, before I stared with black powder cartridge for CAS in 1998 or so, I used 231 and Unique for 44-40 loads.  I believe I used 6.6 of 231.  Most of the load data says 6.5 grains of 231, except Taffin, who lists 8.0 grains.  I like a real stiff loads (marlin 94 and Armi san Marco pistol), but 8 seems a bit stiff.  Anyone tried 8 grns in their CAS pistols?  Also, Anyone used rifle primers in their 44-40 on smokeless loads.  I have used them on black powder, but not smokeless.

[Trailrider]

I've used 6.5 gr W231 behind a 213.5 gr bullet, with fair results. MV from an original Colt's Frontier Six Shooter with a modern cylinder and a 4-3/4" barrel, produced 811 ft/sec. A 7.0 gr. load got me 853 ft/sec, but I felt it was a tad hot for the Colts. In addition, there was an awful lot of excess powder space left in the case, more than I like.  I tried IMR PB, and got similar results, but, again, with a lot of empty space.

I would NOT use Large Rifle primers in .44-40 cases as the primer pockets are formed to the depth of Large Pistol primers.  Large Rifle primers can be up to .009" longer than pistol, which could result in high primers, with the potential for magazine tube explosions or tied up cylinders in revolvers.

[Coal Creek Griff]

The current Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook gives a max of 6.9 grains of 231 under their 427098 205 grain bullet.  They list a pressure of 12,000 CUP for that load.  This is under the pistol section.  I have loaded up to 7.0 grains with a similar bullet for my Uberti 1873 rifle. 

My understanding is that the Marlin rifle can handle higher pressure loads, but I'm not sure about your revolver.

I do get some position sensitivity with W231, but it generally has performed well for me.

CC Griff

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I actually used rifle primers (WLR) on some 44-40 BP loads.  One variety of brass (I can't remember which) they seated flush.  I have about 1,000 of them and 800 of the pistol,  I may play with a few and see.  I'll drop 1/2 grain from the charge on the ones I try.  I know they were too high on 44 mag loads, though.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I found I have a full pound of 2400.  Anyone use it in CAS 44-40 loads? 

I got it for Taffin's 1900+ FPS  hot .44-40 loads in 1894 Marlin.  It works wonderful for that thumper load, VERY accurate with the 200 Grain Speer .427 JSP

[w44wcf]

15.0 grs of 2400 shoots really well for me under a 200-215 gr cast bullet.  Velocity runs around 1,250 f.p.s. in my '73 (21" barrel).

w44wcf  

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Thanks 44WCF, that's about what I thought, based on what I was reading.  Probably quite a bit buck and roar from 5 1/2" Colt clones, but I like it! 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Well, loaded up some loads for the .44-40 with CCI Large Pistol primers and a 205 grain Hornady cast bullets. Used my nickel plated ASM/EMF 4 5/8" barreled revolver to test them.

1)  7.0 grains WW231:  Very tame, compared to what I expected, but I am used to using 230 to 250 grain .45 slugs with Triple 7 or Pyrodex.  It hit pretty much POA at 7-10 yards.

2)  14.7 grains of Alliant 2400:  Seemed a tad warmer than the WW231 loads, but still very tame. 

These smokeless "fad" powders don't have the buck and roar of black and Triple 7.

I actually think I might step it up about half a grain, and see.  Still well below Taffin's Colt 44-40 SAA loads.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I have found that 2400 is just like what you said about other's opinions on 2400 powder:  it is great for heavy loads and VERY accurate with those heavy-hitting loads.

MY container of 2400 still says Hercules on it!  Haven't needed any hot loads.  Oh, well.  It'll still be good when I DO need it.  It's already 25-30 years old!


I'm kinda partial to the Alliant powders anyway.  (Well, as partial as I can get considering it isn't BLACK powder!  )  When I was the Platoon Sergeant (PSG) of the A (Alpha) Troop, 4th Armored Cavalry platoon of M1A1 tanks I "took" to Iraq during Desert Storm, I had another Staff Sergeant on my roster.  Right before we departed to go "over there" to Saudi this fellow got us all together and gave us each a T-shirt from Alliant (It MIGHT have still been Hercules in 1990-'91) with a picture of the 120mm caseless ammo we fired on the M1A1.  It seems that his Sister worked for the Alliant/Herc company and they make the ammo to feed those guns.  As a "Patriotic" gesture they printed up some "Hoo-Rah" t-shirts for their employees with a company logo, a picture of an M1A1 tank, and a picture of one of the APFSDS-T (Armor Piercing Fin-Stabilised Discarding Sabot - Tracer) rounds we were just about to go to War with.   When her Boss found out that her own Brother was going to war on one of the M1A1 tanks using their ammo, he gave her enough T-shirts to give each of us one!  I'll always cherish the memory of the nice gesture that Company did for us Tankers! 

Trivia Time:  I mentioned the fact that this Alliant 2400 powder is smokeyless, not proper  black powder.  Many don't know it, but the Military still uses a LOT of BP!  EVERY  tank round uses 1 to 1 1/2 pounds of BP as the "initiating," or priming charge!  So now, when someone makes a bar-bet with you, the reader about when the US Military quit using Black Powder, you can say with certainty that they have NEVER quit using it!  (I suspect Artillery and Naval rounds use BP, too!)  For this service, you'll need to pay me 10% of whatever you win from this bar-bet!
 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I found 50 rounds of 44-40 loaded with 37 grains (volume) of Pyrodex P.  shot it off so I could use the brass for more smokeless loads,  Now that was "Buck and Roar".  If I had a double instead of a 97 for a shotgun, I think I would load Triple 7 and shoot Frontier Cartridge.  I am too busy and too lazy to shoot "holy black" anymore.  Besides, my persona now is of a Tuolumne County, CA deputy sheriff around 1898.  Being a believer in latest technology, he use a Marlin 1894 44-40 and a Winchester 1897, and smokeless powder.

[PJ Hardtack]

Steel Horse

Interesting that the US Army practices duplex loading, but the reverse of the powders as done by BPCR shooters - using BP as the priming charge.

Were not the charge bags used by the large bore naval rifles also largely (or solely) BP? Seems I read something in Hatcher's notebook about the occasional unplanned detonation at onshore powder magazines.

I've also read allegations that it was an onboard powder magazine explosion that blew up the USS 'Maine', not enemy action.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Shot some more of both loads 7.0 grains of WW-231, and 15.1 grains of Alliant 2400.  No real difference that I can see, except I get twice as many rounds per pound using WW-231 (about 1,000 from a pound).  Probably keep loading 231, since the local gun shop always carries 231 or HP-38 (identical powder) for reasonable prices.  Last few times I was in there, he did not have any 2400.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

15.0 grs of 2400 shoots really well for me under a 200-215 gr cast bullet.  Velocity runs around 1,250 f.p.s. in my '73 (21" barrel).

w44wcf  

I like this 15 grain 2400 load for my 44-40 Spencer.  Have you used it in any pistols?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Steel Horse

Interesting that the US Army practices duplex loading, but the reverse of the powders as done by BPCR shooters - using BP as the priming charge.

Were not the charge bags used by the large bore naval rifles also largely (or solely) BP? Seems I read something in Hatcher's notebook about the occasional unplanned detonation at onshore powder magazines.

I've also read allegations that it was an onboard powder magazine explosion that blew up the USS 'Maine', not enemy action.

Howdy again!

TL, the only pistol loads I've used 2400 in were 357 Mag & 44 Mag loads, no Olde West types.  

PJ Hardtack, it took me a while to re-find this.  The BP in a tank round is more like a giant priming charge, not really a "duplex" load.  That said, it has to do with the way the 120 & 105 mm rounds are ignited.  The firing pin hits and "dimples" the "primer" cap.  As that happens, 1.5 V DC runs 'thru the now-complete circuit.  There is NO primer per-se' like in our rounds, rather, the 1.5 volts is what starts the process and causes the BP to flash, as if it were in a primer.  There Is NO cup or anvil like in one of our primers.  Rather, the voltage creates the proper "spark"  or more like a flash, the BP flashes along it's length (about 6" long in a 120 mm, and around 8" in a 105 mm) and then the main nitro-cellulose charge ignites.  The pellets of nitro-cellulose are around 1/2' to 3/4" long with a hole in the middle (like a fat, straight macaroni) and also has smaller holes surrounding the larger center hole.  The main nitro-c pellets are all triple-based (as in double-base in the case of the powder in this topic, W231 or single-base like most "slower" powders.  The base is basically a coating of nitroglycerin, so double-base is 2 coats of nitro-g and triple base is three coatings of it!  It's HOT!

I've heard the same about the Maine explosion.  I don't know whether the bags of propellent were straight BP or not.  I'm sure there was some used and maybe still used in the big Naval guns.  I don't think that modern Artillery rounds (the ones that use charge bags) are all BP, but I'm pretty sure their priming charges are still using BP.  I was a Tank guy, not Arty!  Sir Charles might know, if he sees this.


We now return to our regularly scheduled topic about W231, a fast, double-base powder, as well as others and their use in 44-40 rounds.