Pick your shot competition idea

[Marthor]

From what I understand, the standard CAS competition is to empty your 4 guns on fairly close range targets timed for speed. I think I'd like to see some more variety in CAS competition.

We could look at a show like "top shot" and apply some ideas to new CAS events. One idea is a pick your shot 1-on-1, The winner moving up the brackets.  It's Cowboy spirit and it encourages other shooting skills besides quick lead dispensing.

Example is: The called shot is left hand pistol at 15 yards to hit a playing card. Hmmm, a longer barrel pistol would be preferred in this game. Not such a necessity driven toward 38 special loads either.

Just an idea to shake up CAS and help it grow. What do you think?   

[LoneRider]

Not gonna' Happen!1

[Tall Dark Slim]

I think you can sell it if you want to. You'll have to keep those that are not marksmen in it by working the target size down. As a side match it has promise. Not everyone values limited round count spray and pray.

[Camille Eonich]

From what I understand, the standard CAS competition is to empty your 4 guns on fairly close range targets timed for speed.

You've never been to a match or shot one and you're already wanting to change it?  Why not just find something that suits you better from the start?

[Pettifogger]

From what I understand, the standard CAS competition is to empty your 4 guns on fairly close range targets timed for speed. I think I'd like to see some more variety in CAS competition.

It sounds like you haven't even shot a match yet.  Shoot a few and you'll find that there is plenty of variety.  What you are suggesting is more in the nature of a side match or shoot-off.  Big SASS matches already have these.

[Marthor]

You've never been to a match or shot one and you're already wanting to change it?  Why not just find something that suits you better from the start?

No need to worry. The standard CAS format would still go on. I'm not suggesting to replace it or change it. I'm looking forward to getting into the matches this year.

However, as a Virgin SASS member, I can have a new perspective to some of the "problems" I've read about. Some of the problems include barriers to drawing in enough newbies to the sport, format having some conflict of interest with the spirit of the game, etc.

Trick shooting like Buffalo Bill is very much part of the genre and spirit, so I'm only suggesting some variety that appeals to a broader base of what could be a greater Cowboy society. From looking into it, it also appears that "Fastdraw" is a seperate organization. Correct? As a newbie, I ask why?  I'd like to see it all come together.

And imagining what could be the funnest, I think this pick your shot competition would be a great add to CAS. Being a new idea, the logistics need to be thought out. From what I can tell, the existing format has been refined into an efficient and safe assembly line. With pick your shot you could have some slow-pokes deciding on a shot and you'd have more range set up time in-between shots. To solve both of those problems, you could have the lower brackets be more standard and then as you get to the top of the brackets more freedom is granted on types of shots you can call.

[Tall Dark Slim]

Look Hoss, it's quite like IDPA with CAS.  The organization appears largely controlled by persons of limited shooting potential seeking to stick in their comfort level and vigorously defend the boat from potential rockers.  Best avenue of approach is to enjoy what's out there. Top shot is a few people with extensive resources backing their antics. Have you ever run a match of any size? What you speak of would have to be seriously considered, planned and masterfully executed if you had any sizable shooter pool. I'm not trying to burn the wagon. Just some food for thought.

[Marthor]

 What you are suggesting is more in the nature of a side match or shoot-off.  Big SASS matches already have these.

What are the side matches that already exist? Is there a list somewhere?
I see in another thread there's mention of a long-range competition.

Much obliged pardners. 

[Camille Eonich]

I would like to add to this thread that a lot of the conflict you read about on the internet concerning CAS you never experience at matches.  I have seen one spirit of the game penalty given out at a match and the person that assigned it later apologized to the receiver because it was given completely in error.  Many of the problems associated with SASS and CAS that you see on the internet come from people that have never shot a match or rarely ever shoot.  No offense to OP meant there at all but that is my opinion based upon years devoted to the sport and to posting and moderating message boards dedicated to the sport.

One of the biggest problems that you will see when you do start shooting is a lack of manpower involved in setting up and running matches.  This leads to burnout of those that do perform those roles.  

The second biggest problem that I see is the lack of consistent rule enforcement at the local level which leads many shooters not having a clear understanding of the rules.  There seems to be this mind set in SASS at local levels that if someone isn't shooting at the top of the pack that the rules shouldn't apply to them and they get by with things that top shooters would never be allowed to get by with.




For side rules check the shooter's manual for some standard ones.  Often there are others that different match operators allow as well.  The best thing to do as far as getting your idea out there is to get involved from the get go.  Offer to help set up and tear down.  Takes the RO courses and learn the rules and how things work then as you know more people you can start offering to write some stages or make some suggestions to the stage writers at your club.  The shooters will let you know real quick if they like your stages and ideas or not.  Some will be much more open to new things that others and some will much more vocal about them that others.   

[Jefro]

 The best thing to do as far as getting your idea out there is to get involved from the get go.  Offer to help set up and tear down.  Takes the RO courses and learn the rules and how things work then as you know more people you can start offering to write some stages or make some suggestions to the stage writers at your club.  The shooters will let you know real quick if they like your stages and ideas or not.  Some will be much more open to new things that others and some will much more vocal about them that others.  

Howdy Marthor, what Camille said, start going to some matches and you'll get a better idea of what's involved. Volunteer to help out, everyone on the posse works, shagging brass, reset targets, spotting...etc..etc. Some folks drive 3+ hours to local matches, the MD has to consider this plus plan six stages that will entertain the masses. For most clubs at the end of the match the targets and props must be torn down, that's a full day for most.

Side matches are usually part of a multi day match, such as an annual, state, or above. They vary from club to club, but most have speed pistol, rifle, shotgun. There is usually pocket pistol, team shoot, long range rifle, and a variety of others.  

My best advice is you have all your guns, head on out to some local matches and start shooting, yer gonna have a blast. Good Luck


Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Two-Step]

First, I will be a bit more polite than some of the previous folks... who honestly should have been respectful enough to take a more pleasant tone. And to think, they let those easily offended and quick tempered types carry loaded guns.

I think you will find it expensive enough to buy the initial 4 guns required to compete in SASS. I wouldn't worry to much about a "top shot" type thing simply because the cost would be insane. If you really want to do something like this, then I would recommend that you get all of your CAS buddies together, pool your guns, go to the range and just do it... don't worry about "official" CAS events, just have fun and be safe.

Now, I will tell you this....
NEVER NEVER EVER propose a new idea to any of the CAS world unless you want to find yourself getting "pistol whipped" in the forums. That right is reserved only for:
1. "Grey Hairs" who think that their way is the ONLY way, even if some do wonder if their organization is drying up and can't figure out why.
2. Advertisers who spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every year and that sponsor CAS events...
3. Those with enough gumption and dollars to start up their own organization.

[Camille Eonich]

First, I will be a bit more polite than some of the previous folks... who honestly should have been respectful enough to take a more pleasant tone. And to think, they let those easily offended and quick tempered types carry loaded guns.

One thing about the internet is that there really is no tone and that along with lack of facial expression, body language and inflection sometimes makes it difficult to determine exactly how someone intended for a post to sound.  For example, your post to me "sounds" exactly like those that you talking about.   

I think you will find it expensive enough to buy the initial 4 guns required to compete in SASS. I wouldn't worry to much about a "top shot" type thing simply because the cost would be insane. If you really want to do something like this, then I would recommend that you get all of your CAS buddies together, pool your guns, go to the range and just do it... don't worry about "official" CAS events, just have fun and be safe.

Agree.

Now, I will tell you this....
NEVER NEVER EVER propose a new idea to any of the CAS world unless you want to find yourself getting "pistol whipped" in the forums.

I'll agree with this somewhat.  As stated earlier the best thing to do is to get involved and then start proposing new ideas.  It's almost never a good idea in any case to start trying to change things without having a basic understanding of what is going on already.  You really can't get a basic understanding of what is going on in CAS, either NCOWs or SASS without actually going to match.


Now, in reading back over my initial post on this subject I do realize that the "tone" may have "sounded" a bit rude.  In actuality the "tone" behind it actually was why would you want to invest the time, effort and cash involved in getting into CAS when based upon what you know about it your already are looking for it to be something else.

[Marshal Deadwood]

SASS is what it IS. I don't see that anyone 'pistol whipped' anyone. I know it's costly to get into it,,,but that's part of the fun,,the nights dreaming about that next necessary piece of gear...
Not everyone has everything at first,but SASS folks are the best at loaning and helping you 'make do' till you get your plan together. Then sure did for me.
Just don't let it daunt you..go out,,see what SASS is,,,and then decide.
I'd kinda be disappointed if I COULDN'T shoot four guns on a stage. And I sure as heck aint made of money,,if 'I' could plan and save and get into this,,I think MOST folks could.  That is if the attraction to the game becomes a priority. If it doesn't,,then ,,,it doesn't and wouldn't be what you'd wanna do maybe anyways.

Just saying

Deadwood

[Tall Dark Slim]

Two Step,
Something that I've gathered from various forums: Folks sure are brazen and bold when they have a Pseudonym to fire from behind. Also tone and inflection are easily misinterpreted in the land of no sound or face to face contact.

Camille,
As a Range Officer for other disciplines I commend you for this answer. It sure is tough to run a timer and a match with univolved and unsupportives or newbies making suggestions. All folks should try before they buy into any discipline and not seek to fix what is largely percieved as unbroken. I think that he's got a decent idea for a side match at some point, but needs to get his hands dirty first to appreciate the logistics of it.

Marshall Deadwood,
Four guns on a stage every time is rather dry. I believe any good three gun match should sucessfully isolate all of the elements and combines them to showcase the individual shooters that are the best with each and also the best overall shooter of all three. Not all gunfights required the use of a myriad of weapons and there are only so many ways one can mix the transitions up and down and still have a speedy and efficient stage. IMHO all the weapons should be available to the shooter at the beginning of the stage and I would like to see a bit more problem solving inserted into competitions. For example if one must shoot all for weapons....why not have the ranges increased a tad for the rifle and have moving shotgun targets arrayed in such a manner that the shooter must choose which weapon(s) to employ on a given stage. If the Pard is able to one gun it than so be it, he takes his licks for the on the clock reloading and has good clean and safe fun. The shooter should have the freedom to engage the targets as they see fit and if they choose the rifle for close in targets the stages can be laid out insuch a manner that the pistol is a monumentally better choice.

Respectfully,
Tall Dark Slim aka Forrest Halley

[Marshal Deadwood]

If the Pard is able to one gun it than so be it, he takes his licks for the on the clock reloading and has good clean and safe fun. The shooter should have the freedom to engage the targets as they see fit and if they choose the rifle for close in targets the stages can be laid out insuch a manner that the pistol is a monumentally better choice.

You already CAN.

You can shoot that way now if you chose. You can shoot the entire stage with one revolver and a shotgun,,maybe just a revolver depending on if the range will let you shoot their shotgun gongs with a revolver.

Lots of times I shoot two revolvers and leave the rifle home.  Requires reloading and eating up the clock, but its fun. How many seconds you want to use up on a given stage is entirely up to you. Our club also arranges the revolver targets at a distance and way that one can shoot them with the rifle,,reload,,shoot the rifle targets,,and you could leave the revolvers out of it. I just prefer handguns to rifles myself,,IF I'm not shooting rifle AND revolvers.
So,  you see, you really are not concreted into competing with 4 guns anyways.  Our club prefers the shotgun 'knockdowns' not be shot with rifle or revolver to keep from damaging the shotgun targets, but I guess that'd be up to the individual club.

SASS is NOT an organization to fear..they are very accommodating folks.

Deadwood

[Camille Eonich]

LOL I just remembered that at one match we had someone that couldn't shoot their shotgun that match for whatever reason.  When it came shotgun time he picked up a small sledge hammer and went downrange and engaged the shotgun targets.   

[Tall Dark Slim]

You already CAN.

You can shoot that way now if you chose. You can shoot the entire stage with one revolver and a shotgun,,maybe just a revolver depending on if the range will let you shoot their shotgun gongs with a revolver.

Lots of times I shoot two revolvers and leave the rifle home.  Requires reloading and eating up the clock, but its fun. How many seconds you want to use up on a given stage is entirely up to you. Our club also arranges the revolver targets at a distance and way that one can shoot them with the rifle,,reload,,shoot the rifle targets,,and you could leave the revolvers out of it. I just prefer handguns to rifles myself,,IF I'm not shooting rifle AND revolvers.
So,  you see, you really are not concreted into competing with 4 guns anyways.  Our club prefers the shotgun 'knockdowns' not be shot with rifle or revolver to keep from damaging the shotgun targets, but I guess that'd be up to the individual club.

SASS is NOT an organization to fear..they are very accommodating folks.

Deadwood

I'm not afraid of SASS, I was however unaware that I could foreswear the rifle that I do not really want to buy in the first place. I'm cool with my '86 and have no desire to own anyway. Maybe someday I'll talk myself into a lightning variant, but that's down the road a piece. Besides I've got a sickeningly slick Schofield and a decent background in revolver shooting. I may not be a super fast cowboy shooter, but I hope to get better at using this era of firearms.

The club I am shooting with doesn't seem to like the Josey Wales except every so often. I was unaware that I could just do it and not worry about fitting into a category of my own. Thanks for that.

[Camille Eonich]

Best ask your match director first.   

[Pettifogger]

As previously noted, you can't measure tone on a typewriter.  Being factual isn't being impolite.  SASS has been around for over 30 years.  Pretty much everything has been tried at one time or another so the OP simply needs to get out and SHOOT.  Then he will have a basis for assessing what is taking place and how and why certain things are done or not done.  As far as side matches there are as many as the Match Director can think up.  Generally, there is pocket pistol, derringer, long range rifle (with a variety of sub-categories based on rifle design), speed rifle, speed shotgun, speed pistol, shotgun sporting clays, trap and skeet, etc.  As far as "fast draw" they use blanks, SASS, NCOWS, shoot real bullets.  We draw "fast" but do not engage in "fast draw" for safety reasons.  In fast draw many shooters actually cock the hammer while the gun is in the holster.  Do that at a live ammo match and if you don't shoot yourself you'll get DQ'd.  Remember safety is first.  Just so everyone doesn't mis-understand my tone I'll clarify. 

[Two-Step]

Sorry guys. I just get a bit riled when I see a person get "told off" just because he has an idea. Can you imaging where CAS would be if the founders of the sport "just followed the crowd" and stuck with what was already going on? First of all, no CAS sports....
My previous post was 1/2 joke and 1/2 not... The 1/2 not people will know who they are and the other 1/2 will be polite and nice enough to not mention it. 

A lot of people are not open to change, new concepts, or the public exchange of ideas. But, this is exactly what will help CAS stay alive and grow... even if the ideas and concepts are rejected, at least the person who offered the idea was a part of the direction that CAS will go.

Personally, I thought that the "top gun" type thing sounded great... but VERY expensive. Mainly, the expense would be to the host rather than the competitor because the competitor isn't necessarily supposed to be familiar with the particular firearm.

To be honest, I think that it is important to be open to any and all ideas which promote CAS sports in a SAFE, RESPONSABLE, and FUN way. If enough people got together and could do a "Top Gun" match, then awesome... do it. I think that SASS offers the best chance to get something like this going on an "official" level as they already have a lot to offer the "multi gun" shooter.

In time, we may see a "top shot" format in a CAS organization. If not SASS then another... maybe even a brand new CAS organization. Who really knows at this point.