To line or not to line?

daddyeaux · January 12, 2012, 05:09:57 PM

I haven't made many holsters and none of them have been lined. All of the holsters I have seen commercially made are not lined either. I have a friend that does leather work and is much more experienced than me and told me that if I didn't line the holster the leather would wear the blueing off. I carried my Dan Wesson for at least 10 years in a leather holster and did not notice any bluing rubbed off. How about it guys, will it make much of a difference and what is the reason to line a holster?
Thanks

Boothill Bob · January 12, 2012, 05:18:52 PM

Howdy.
I've lined a bunch of holsters. I line them to get them stiffer and to get a slicker side to the gun for a smother draw. I dont belive that a veg tanned leather will rubb the blueing off, if you dont get a lot of sand in your holster there is. But I belive that chrome tanned leather can ruin you gun. Correct me if I'm wrong guys.

Cliff Fendley · January 12, 2012, 05:21:09 PM

From personal experience on my carry guns over the years there is no advantage to lining in regards to bluing wear. I've got one that I've been carrying for several years now in a lined holster and the bluing is off of the corners worse than one just like it in an unlined holster. They have been carried about the same. I believe the smoother lining let the gun move in the holster and actually created more wear.

The Glock 27 that I carry in an unlined holster actually has more wear on the area outside the holster from my shirt. The holster has created virtually no wear on the guns finish.

I've seen cheap holsters made with leather that has a rough flesh side that has has a top coating all over it leaving the flesh side like sand paper. I'm sure that would mess up a gun but a well finished holster made out of quality leather I see no difference.

daddyeaux · January 12, 2012, 05:58:04 PM

Thanks for that info guys........I'm making a couple concealed carry holsters now and wanted to get some input before I got too far along.

Trailrider · January 12, 2012, 06:07:59 PM

Properly fitted, a holster must contact a gun about seven places (depending on whether the trigger guard is completely exposed or not). Bluing is nothing more than a couple of molecules thick layer of oxide or dye. The holster will rub the gun at these contact points, and depending on how much the gun is drawn and returned to the holster, the bluing will wear some, how much depending on the surface against which the gun comes in contact.

A lined holster, if the "right" materials are used will wear less than an unlined holster, or one lined with the wrong material. But it will NOT completely prevent bluing wear. Topgrain cowhide is the best thing I have found to reduce bluing wear. It will also make drawing the gun smoother, IF the holster is properly wet-formed to the gun.

Massive · January 12, 2012, 10:12:00 PM

"But I belive that chrome tanned leather can ruin you gun. Correct me if I'm wrong guys."

I know that in the bespoke shoe business there are few options for getting real veg tan, particularly on real old type hide. Not all leathers are fully veg tanned with some being preprocessed with various chemicals. In addition there are products used in dehairing, and dying that are also capable of rusting. So people do complain of veg tan rusting metals. In my lakeside climate I still don't normally have a problem with most storage. I have had certain sheaths that were like an acid bath. Whatever the case, while people say lining will help, I don't see why when it is all the same hide.

Also, I see a lot of popularity in Stainless guns, which are normally only medium stain resistant, but certainly fine for non-marine use. I guess this popularity mirrors nickle plated guns carried back in the 19th century by some notables.

Slowhand Bob · January 13, 2012, 08:20:28 AM

I know that I make the decision to line a lot more since taking to the sewing machine. You do not talk ugly bout a guys guns to his face BUT truth is if one is using one of the imports, or anything else that has not been de-fanged, I would recommend unlined and just really bone the fibers as tight as possible. No since in paying for a liner and having sharp edges, particularly the cylinder, peel that liner right off.

Ten Wolves Fiveshooter · January 13, 2012, 10:24:24 AM

Lots of good thoughts here on lining a holster or not, for me depending on the type of holster style and what is for usually helps me with this decision, as for bluing wear, I haven't found one way better than the other, IMHO, most all period gun leather was not lined, there must have been exceptions to that, but most were not, as for bluing, if you have a problem with bluing wear, don't holster your gun, this will save a lot of wear over time, this is why you will see pards with beautiful guns that are too nice to take a chance spoiling the appearance of the gun, they will shoot these guns, but usually on the bench, and laid on a mat when through,they don't shoot in cowboy action comp. it all comes down to what is except-able to you, for me I won't own a gun that I have to baby, I think a little bluing wear gives a gun character again IMHO.

tEN wOLVES

daddyeaux · January 13, 2012, 04:59:37 PM

Thanks for all this info......I'm so confused......lol........now I'm seeing that most say it really doesn't matter much to the wear of the bluing matter. I'm thinking that the only real advantage would be to make the holster a little stiffer. Since I am making concealed carry holsters and wet molding them and want them as stiff as possible lining would help in that matter. But would add to the cost and labor involved. So now I must decide, do I line or not line...... Please correct me if I am reading all these posts wrong.
Thanks Guys.....

Boothill Bob · January 13, 2012, 05:27:54 PM

I dont belive that you Shell line a conceal carry holster, it will be hard to wet mold it nice then. Maby you can reinforce it on some outher way? Have you looked at http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=18060.40 Its a forum for modern carry holsters.

//BhB

rickk · January 13, 2012, 07:23:32 PM

Unless you have a sewing machine, it is a hell of a lot of work.

daddyeaux · January 14, 2012, 08:25:53 AM

I do have a machine so that is no problem. Thanks for the downrange website, I could not remember what that website was called.

Cliff Fendley · January 14, 2012, 05:09:21 PM

Since getting a sewing machine I have taken on projects and done add ons that I normally wouldn't have but lining holsters is not one of them. I still seldom line one.

ChuckBurrows · January 14, 2012, 06:57:33 PM

As premier holster maker, Thad Rybka, once stated - if you don;t want the blue on your gun to wear leave it in the box.

A holster neither need sto be lined or be of extra heavy weight to be firm/stiff - you can get hides from W & C double or triple plated on request or you can get Herman Oak which generally has a stiffer hand. Or you can use the dampend and heat method. I've made a thousand or more concealment type holsters for all typess of folks including LEO's and soldiers and have never lined one. Most "tactical" holster makers don't line either except when adding an inlay. My own IWB carry holster for my Colt M1911 has been used now for 20 years and it's still good to go.

outrider · January 14, 2012, 07:29:16 PM

Amen Chuck...I agree 100%...although I will line a holster upon request...but I do not see any reason or advantage to line a concealed carry holster

Cliff Fendley · January 14, 2012, 07:30:50 PM

Chuck makes a good point, I believe many holsters are lined to make them stiff but the brand of leather has a lot to do with that. Standard W&C leather is firmer than much of the import stuff and Herman Oak is the best thing I've found for moulding. I actually like the W&C firmness as it's about just right for holding it's shape for modern day Cowboy Action shooting by still leaving the holster with a true old west look to it.

TN Mongo · January 16, 2012, 04:49:31 PM

I line almost all of My CAS holsters with smooth veg tan. I line them to make them stiff and thick to hold their shape. I want them to be as durable as I can make them.

I don't line concealed carry holsters and IMHO this would be a disadvantage in this type of holster. The best way to avoid bluing wear is to carry a stainless steel gun.

Massive · January 17, 2012, 01:55:57 AM

What is the best way to avoid particles from the suede side coming out with the gun? Some leather seems more prone that other stuff.

One thing about lining is that it is typically how quality leather goods are made. It doesn't really mean quality, since quality is how well one does the thing one does, and how good the materials are. It isn't about the fundamental choice of what to make, unless one option is just horrible. A buckskin jacket might last longer than a sweater, but that doesn't make one higher quality than the other. Of course CAS is a sport where you might get some points for authenticity, people feel differently about that also.

But anyway, getting back to quality, the better goods are all lined. It is normally considered to require more work, and more technique, and it allows more expression in the good, or at least another area of expression. For what it is worth.

outrider · January 17, 2012, 07:03:21 AM

Massive,

I for one will use suede to line a belt...makes a good non-slip contact...however I will not line a holster with suede because it collects dust and small debris that will eventually harm the surface of the gun. I would recommend (in my opinion) either a good veg tanned pigskin or veg tanned cowhide as a liner...some originals were lined with deerskiin

ChuckBurrows · January 17, 2012, 03:41:07 PM

Quote from: Massive on January 17, 2012, 01:55:57 AM
What is the best way to avoid particles from the suede side coming out with the gun? Some leather seems more prone that other stuff.
One thing about lining is that it is typically how quality leather goods are made. It doesn't really mean quality, since quality is how well one does the thing one does, and how good the materials are. It isn't about the fundamental choice of what to make, unless one option is just horrible. A buckskin jacket might last longer than a sweater, but that doesn't make one higher quality than the other. Of course CAS is a sport where you might get some points for authenticity, people feel differently about that also.

But anyway, getting back to quality, the better goods are all lined. It is normally considered to require more work, and more technique, and it allows more expression in the good, or at least another area of expression. For what it is worth.

Do all your tooling, etc, and then while still flat dye if so desired, then smooth with Gum Tragacanth - may take a couple or so applications, followed by a coat or two of Leather Balm with atom wax.

You can also buy pre-dyed ie vat/drum dyed leather from either Wickett & Craig or RJF Leather. W & C also sells leather with a pasted back (basically the same thing as I described above) - not sure about RJF. Another alternative with W & C is to buy a 11/12 oz sides and have it split for free to 8/9 oz which will give you a nice clean backside to start with and then do the Gum Trag trick as above.

As for lined goods such as original period holsters, maybe about ten percent were lined and even then it was not particularly a sign of quality in period nor were they "common". Over all unlined holsters, including plenty of heavily tooled high quality ones, were the norm for the period - whether or not common is important depends on one sees themselves - as a living historian/re-enactor or as SASS shooter et al where such things are only important to certain cartegories,

As for using deerskin or other types of soft hides available from most suppliers - they are almost all chrome tanned and while some may disagree I will not knowingly use it due to it's potential for increasing the chances of corrosion. Plus up until the very late 1880's chrome tanned wasn't used since it hadn't been developed yet, but again that is only important to certain folks,
If I were to use deer hide on a special piece such as an exacting copy of TR's Cheyenne holster, I would get some bark tanned deer (there are re-enactor suppliers/specialty custom tanners who carry it), or some brain tan, or the German tan from Crazy Crow which is a true oil tan, or alum tawed hides from some speciality tanners - there's one in North Western Montana (Kalispell?) that does beautiful deer, sheep, and goat hides IIRC.
On the other hand I don't care for the soft liners even though they were used in period - they tend to wear out too fast for my tastes, so I agree with Outrider with his choices of veg tan liners.