Disaster - blew up a '58 Remmy conversion

[Pettifogger]

Since there have been documented sightings of White Buffaloes, let's call this the Unicorn of reloading. 

[cavsgt]

  H.H. Sometime give the techs. at Sierra a call they spent quite a bit of time trying to get a detonation.  There was no combination that would detonate and the only excessive pressures came from dbl. charge, bullet set too deep or in the case of .38 wadcutters two in the case.
  In my own experience way before hearing of the detonations(?) we loaded 4.5grs. of Bullseye in a 45/70 for a kid load.  I would think if any combination would go that should be it.

[Cliff Fendley]

Glad your OK. You may never know for sure what happened but I agree with you on using Trail Boss. One thing I really like about Trail Boss in the 45 colt and 44wcf. A double charge will overflow the case and hopefully be noticeable before seating a bullet.

One little tip for using Trail Boss in a Dillon. I've heard a lot of people don't like to use it because it wont meter right. I had to start using the large powder bar because the small one had to be opened fully just to drop 5.5 grains and I was getting spillage and uneven charges. The large powder bar for 20 grains and up works perfect for the trail boss in my 550B.

[cavsgt]

  You have your opinion and I have mine both have no facts to prove them.  So I guess that we have agreed to disagree.

[Junkman]

HH,

I'll bet you believe in the tooth fairy too!  

[Pettifogger]

Strange, a few intervening posts have disappeared.  Makes the thread a little off kilter.

[Grapeshot]

I'm glad to see you weren't hurt.  Almost all your responses tend to believe that you double charged your case with powder.  However, several years ago an article appeared in SHOOT! magazine dealing with this same problem, using a progressive press.  IIRC and I am not doubting you, but there is evidence that when you went to seat the bullet in the case prior to the one that failed, the bullet stayed in the seating die due to lube build up.  I've had it happen to me on my RCBS Rock Chucker.  Anyway, when you put the next bullet on that case and ran it up the seating die, you pushed that bullet deep into the case with the previously stuck one coming lose and staying in that case and looking perfectly normal.

Now you have double the WEIGHT of lead on top of that powder charge.  That is also a receipie for diaster.

The advice the author put out was to insure that ALL the cases coming out of the press had a bullet in it.

Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.

[w44wcf]

Grapeshot,
Excellent thought! I recall that same scenerio several years ago in SHOOT magazine in that 3 cowboys who owned 44-40 revolvers blew them all up. They determined that to be the cause. One would think that after the first mishap, they would have really done some digging to find out why(?). It wasn't until after the 3rd revolver let go that they determined the cause....... 2 bullets in a case.  

In this case though, the cartridge is the 45 Colt and likely, the bulge of the bottom bullet would not allow the cartridge to be chambered. (After I learned of the above situation, I tried seating 2 bullets in a 45 Colt case. The bulge from the base of the bottom bullet was really noticeable and the cartridge would not come close to being chambered.)

Beauregard had indicated on another website that he loaded the bullets individually by hand on his progressive press and thus there were not two bullets in the case. I was very happy to hear that he was not injured.

The likely culprit was a double charged case.  I hate to admit that I did that once. I was loading Hodgdon's Universal under a 250 gr bullet. I was shooting a side match (reduced steel buffaloes ot to 125 yards) when one of the shots did not sound right. I immediately knew there was something wrong when I tried to eject the cartridge. The lever on my Marlin Cowboy rifle would not budge.

I used a cleaning rod to remove the case. The primer was really flat and the case rim/head had increased by .005" in diameter. THANKFULLY, the Marlin held and there was no damage to the rifle. I called a fellow I knew who worked at the Hodgdon's ballistic lab and he estimated the pressure at close to 60,000 CUP.  

I recalled what happened. Sometimes I double charge a case in a loading block of 50 to see what a double charged case looks like for reference.   I then dump the powder back into the powder measure. On the day that I loaded  that block of 50 I must have been called away to the phone........

w44wcf

[Lumpy Grits]

Looks more to be powder over charge(double charge)more than 2 bullets in one case.
The known 2 in 1 blow-ups I have seen had the front of the top strap peeled back.
You should weigh all of the remaining rounds to look for another bad load.
Cheers,
LG

[Beauregard Hooligan]

I'm glad to see you weren't hurt.  Almost all your responses tend to believe that you double charged your case with powder.  However, several years ago an article appeared in SHOOT! magazine dealing with this same problem, using a progressive press.  IIRC and I am not doubting you, but there is evidence that when you went to seat the bullet in the case prior to the one that failed, the bullet stayed in the seating die due to lube build up.  I've had it happen to me on my RCBS Rock Chucker.  Anyway, when you put the next bullet on that case and ran it up the seating die, you pushed that bullet deep into the case with the previously stuck one coming lose and staying in that case and looking perfectly normal.

Now you have double the WEIGHT of lead on top of that powder charge.  That is also a receipie for diaster.

The advice the author put out was to insure that ALL the cases coming out of the press had a bullet in it.

Hope this sheds a little light on the subject.

I'm the OP, and build up of bullet lube is not an issue. I shoot Bear Creek Supply molybdenum disulphide coated bullets, no alox or wax to build up. One way or another, I must have double charged that round. I beat the rest apart with an inertia bullet puller, and all the other powder charges were right. It's like aircraft accidents, mostly operator error. I'm not looking for some strange explanation for what happened that would somehow relieve me of responsibility for what happened. I'm old enough to know I can, just like any other hand loader, make a mistake. All I want to see come out of this is other folks do what I'm in the process of doing; examine my loading process and ensure that this doesn't happen again. I made a mistake, but luckily no one was hurt. Learn from my misfortune, and stay safe at every point in the loading process. 

[Hill Beachy]

<snip> and perhaps we will see each other soon, but will certainly meet at the Great Round Up in the sky, one of these glorious days.

As long as you're not in a hurry to get that Great Roundup -- I plan to stick here for just a bit longer!   

[Beauregard Hooligan]

As long as you're not in a hurry to get that Great Roundup -- I plan to stick here for just a bit longer!   

I'm not in any hurry, but I live my life one day at a time. I enjoy what time I have, and live each day as if it was going to be last. One of these day, I'll be right. 

Take care amigo.

[Beauregard Hooligan]

Howdy Folks,

     I've had a busy day. Last night I loaded some .45 Colt cases with progressively heavier charges of Trail Boss with Bear Creek Supply 255 gn RNFP bullets on my Redding 7 station turret press. Hodgdon suggests a starting load of 4.5 gn, and a maximum charge of 5.8 gns. I loaded 20 rounds of 4.5 gns, then 20 more at 4.8 gns, then 5.0 gns, 5.2 gns, 5.4 gns and stopped at 5.6 gns. I took those rounds out to a friends almond orchard and did some informal shooting into a levee berm today. Understand me, I want to shoot my pistols with a buck and snort load, trying to shoot loads that shoot and feel like the .45 Colt rounds of yore, but with smokeless powder. I'm not a person who shoots mouse fart loads so I can shoot quickly. I went out in a friends almond orchard and shot these loads in my .45 Colt Ruger Vaqueros and in my Marlin 1894 Cowboy. I came to appreciate the 5.2 gn load for both shoot-ability and accuracy. I'm going to post a thread about progressive reloading on the Dillon 650XL press, and how I tried to eliminate the possibility of having another disaster as I had with blowing up my '58 Remington with it's Taylor .45 Colt cylinder. I'd write it up now, but I'm dead dog tired, drinking a cold Bud, and watching Hell On Wheels on AMC. You will see the new thread shortly. I want to thank all the folks who wished me well, and tried to help me resolve such a dangerous and destructive event could take place. Look forward tor the rest soon.

[Burt Blade]

Another possibility: It fired out of battery.

I have observed revolvers that over and under rotate. They miss the lockup, and keep going, or come up slightly short. In most cases, you wind up with a "click" and a firing pin imprint way off center on the edge of the primer or on the brass. Over-rotation usually occurs when working the action very quickly. I have observed one under-rotating gun that would not quite lock unless it was cocked quickly.

Any prior unexplained "click" with yours? Off-center primer hits on brass?

If the cylinder is only slightly out of position, the off-center primer hit will still fire the cartridge. The slug enters the barrel slightly off bore. If the alignment error is slight, the slug can either force the cylinder back into position or shave lead and force-fit. (or both) Either event will slow down the bullet quite a bit. If it is slightly more off bore, too much to re-align or shave, then the bullet will stop. All of the mis-alignment options are going to boost pressure. A conversion cylinder in a New Model Army has very little margin for overpressure. The likely failure points are directly into adjacent chambers, where they will ignite any available cartridges to add to the excitement.

One off-bore round might not blow up the gun, but two or three at once certainly will. The adjacent rounds will certainly strike the frame.

[Burt Blade]

In your pictures, both of the visible remaining rounds show evidence of something pressing on the sides.

Could have been even more exciting if those rounds had also touched off.